# lawyers, law students and judges - a poll **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 11, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631 "2008-06-11T22:54:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/1 "2008-06-11T22:54:26Z")
On another board I was given a challenge and I would like to poll the US lawyers to give an answer. (Don’t ask why I beat my head against right wing walls and their forums, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment) 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. 2. Have you read your states Constitution. 3. In what state do you reside? 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? (Sorry non-US law types, this is specific to the US) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/2 "2008-06-11T23:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] On another board I was given a challenge and I would like to poll the US lawyers to give an answer. (Don’t ask why I beat my head against right wing walls and their forums, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment) 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. 2. Have you read your states Constitution. 3. In what state do you reside? 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? (Sorry non-US law types, this is specific to the US) [/QUOTE] 1.) Of course - Constitutional Law is a standard part of the first-year law school curriculum, and the Constitution is (I should hope!) always assigned reading. 2.) No - but then, I’m in DC, so we don’t really have on. I _did_ read the New Hampshire constitution, when I lived in that state. 3.) None - I’m in DC. 4.) Well, we do both - I’ve taken a lot of constitutional law classes, but almost any law class is going to focus on case law (or statutory law, in some very painful cases). A standard class in constitutional law - whether it’s the first-year required class, First Amendment, National Security, etc. - is going to have you read a bunch of cases where someone is saying “hey, the government is violating the Constitution by doing X”. Even the classes that aren’t explicitly focused on constitutional law certainly draw on it a great deal - Criminal Law, Criminal Procedure, Evidence, and so on. That said, there are also classes that don’t draw all that much from the US Constitution, and would probably be taught almost the same way in any other common-law country - Torts comes to mind. 5.) I’m a law student, going into my third (and final) year. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/3 "2008-06-12T01:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] On another board I was given a challenge and I would like to poll the US lawyers to give an answer. (Don’t ask why I beat my head against right wing walls and their forums, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment) 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. 2. Have you read your states Constitution. 3. In what state do you reside? 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? (Sorry non-US law types, this is specific to the US) [/QUOTE] 1. Yes. I have a copy I keep in my bag, along with the Federal Rules of Evidence. 2. Parts only 3. New York State 4. Yes - a year (6 credit hours) is mandatory. The first semester focuses on the powers of the different parts of the Federal government and how they relate to the other parts and the states (or as my con law prof puts it, WHO DECIDES), the second semester focuses on individual rights. Additionally, Criminal Procedure (4 credit hours), covering the 4, 5, & 6th Amendments, is highly recommended as it is always heavily present on the Bar Exam - although technically optional, almost everyone takes it. Additionally, My Appellate Advocacy class involved an Equal Protection case - although the topic of the appellate brief is left to individual professors, many choose constitutional questions. Additional classes are available as electives. The study of constitutional law requires the careful reading of the words of the Constitution as well as reading a large number of Supreme Court cases. Additionally, we discuss the theoretical underpinnings of constitutional analysis (for example, functionalist arguments, structuralist arguments, original understanding, founder’s intent, etc.) 5. I am a law student (starting 3rd year next fall) ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/4 "2008-06-12T01:25:55Z")
1. Yes. 2. Parts. 3. California 4. I’d have to say both. Depending on the issue and the class. 5. None of the above. (Non-practicing). ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/5 "2008-06-12T02:31:24Z")
1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. Of course. 1. Have you read your states Constitution. Of course. 1. In what state do you reside? New York. I’ve also read Washington’s and Alaska’s. 1. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) As far as I am aware, Constitutional Law is a required course at every ABA accredited law school - it’s considered a basic staple along with such things as Criminal Law, Torts, Property Law, Contract Law, Civil Procedure, etc. I’m not sure the question of whether studying the document itself or precedent are more emphasized is a useful one, though. Precedent (in theory) serves to illustrate applications of existing law, not replace study of the source material. Think of it like commentary sections on DVDs. The commentary in no way replaces watching the actual movie - it just helps you gain more insight into where the filmmaker was trying to go with it, or what (in the case of literary commentary) provides insight as to how other people have interpreted the source material. Precedent shows a lawyer how other practictioners and jurists have interpreted the source material - it shows the trend of thinking and understanding. It’s not like “studying the Constitution” and “precedent case law” are in any way mutually exclusive - I would, in fact, be exceptionally wary of any legal education program that failed to emphasize in the strongest possible fashion that one should always consult the source materials. I would consider it exceptionally sloppy lawyering to fail to consult the source materials (except in cases where you’re in familiar territory - if you’ve handled similar cases before, there’s no need to check again other than to do a check to make sure nothing has _changed_ since your last foray into the territory). 1. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? None of the above. By my own choice, I do not practice, but am a member of the NY, WA and US Patent bars. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/6 "2008-06-12T02:31:56Z")
**1. Have you read the constitution of the United States.** Yes. Some parts repeatedly and intensely (1st, 4th, 4th, 8th, 14th Amendments), some parts only a couple of times. **2. Have you read your states Constitution.** Yes. **3. In what state do you reside?** North Carolina. **4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like)** As others have said, Con Law is a required class so, sure, we studied it. I think the question of which is “more emphasized” is a false dichotomy, because I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. “Case law” is a type of source, like statutes or law review articles. The Constitution is a specific source. **5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student?** None of the above. 🙂 I train on legal issues but do not currently practice law. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/7 "2008-06-12T03:02:00Z")
Thanks for the responses so far. I know they sound like rather dumb questions, but the ‘point’ this women was attempting to make was that the law as it stands today isn’t based solidly in the constitution or as she likes to put it ‘old law’. She said to ask any lawyer these questions that I’ve put to you and I’m assuming she expects the answers to be no. I just wanted to get some responses from those that have studied and practiced law to demonstrate that she is full of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/8 "2008-06-12T03:07:22Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] Thanks for the responses so far. I know they sound like rather dumb questions, but the ‘point’ this women was attempting to make was that the law as it stands today isn’t based solidly in the constitution or as she likes to put it ‘old law’. [/quote] Well, a lot of it isn’t. What “law as it stands today” is she talking about? Broadly speaking, the Constitution presents parameters beyond which government may not stray in regulating the people. But most specific laws that people are bound by in the U.S are found in statutes (codified, published laws, passed by the legislative bodies), which are not based on the Constitution. The Constitution sets out a broad framework for government. The Bill of Rights sets forth the rights of the people, which laws and government action may not infringe. But the laws themselves are legislative constructs. So I don’t think she’s full of it, actually, but I do think her assertion is so non-specific as to be meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/9 "2008-06-12T03:23:42Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] Well, a lot of it isn’t. What “law as it stands today” is she talking about? Broadly speaking, the Constitution presents parameters beyond which government may not stray in regulating the people. But most specific laws that people are bound by in the U.S are found in statutes (codified, published laws, passed by the legislative bodies), which are not based on the Constitution. The Constitution sets out a broad framework for government. The Bill of Rights sets forth the rights of the people, which laws and government action may not infringe. But the laws themselves are legislative constructs. So I don’t think she’s full of it, actually, but I do think her assertion is so non-specific as to be meaningless. [/QUOTE] I agree, she was essentially saying that she believes in “the Ten Commandments and the Constitution”. Here is a section of her ramblings to show where I came up with the questions I listed above. > [@](#): > > The enemies of our Beloved Country have framed so many contrary “laws” that insulate us from our Foundations, The Constitution be it National or State, are not regarded in “law schools” anymore, much to the horror of law-abiding citizens. I challenge you to ask a “lawyer” if they have read the Constitution of this Beloved Country or the State where they reside and practice law. “Law school” is a study of “precedent case law” and if you have no foundation for law what will you do??? Stay in court for years, paying lawyers to go to court because Judges hate “pro se” hearings, and then to get a “verdict” that is listed as “precedent” that will be listed amongst the thousand of other cases on the books. If you, perchance, dig out that case that might please the judge, you might get a favorable ruling, unless you have a formative foe (meaning that they have limitless money to do you harm.) I ask is this what common, God-fearing Americans expects when they go to court??? > > I can remember a time when most Americans never visited a lawyer’s office except to write a will or have some type of legal document like a deed drawn up. Now, if you burn the trash in a " confined container" you’ll need a lawyer because you are violating “some newly come-up law” that has deprived you of a common right that was entrusted to you by your parents when you were 6 yrs. old. This is not an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/10 "2008-06-12T03:48:12Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] I agree, she was essentially saying that she believes in “the Ten Commandments and the Constitution”. Here is a section of her ramblings to show where I came up with the questions I listed above. [/QUOTE] The thread has now changed from a poll to discussion. Moved from IMHO to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/11 "2008-06-12T03:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] The thread has now changed from a poll to discussion. Moved from IMHO to GD. [/QUOTE] Well crap. I should have left well enough alone. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/12 "2008-06-12T04:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] I agree, she was essentially saying that she believes in “the Ten Commandments and the Constitution”. Here is a section of her ramblings to show where I came up with the questions I listed above. [/QUOTE] Why is that crazy people always have their fun rules of capitalization? > [@The Ten Commandments and the Constitution Lady](#): > > I can remember a time when most Americans never visited a lawyer’s office except to write a will or have some type of legal document like a deed drawn up. Would that be today? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/13 "2008-06-12T04:03:27Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] Well crap. I should have left well enough alone. [/QUOTE] 😛 I been there. Who knows? Could give you more than you expected. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/14 "2008-06-12T04:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] 😛 I been there. Who knows? Could give you more than you expected. [/QUOTE] True. That’s why I’m on that other forum, to fight the good fight. It’s a frustrating task. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/15 "2008-06-12T04:40:39Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. [/quote] Yes, several times starting in high school history class. [QUOTE=Antinor01] 2. Have you read your states Constitution. [/quote] No, and few lawyers have. A **state** constitution can be as long as detailed as a statutory code. You don’t read it, you look up relevant clauses as needed. [QUOTE=Antinor01] 3. In what state do you reside? [/quote] Florida. [QUOTE=Antinor01] 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) [/quote] Constitutional law is a required course at most law schools, but studying it **is** studying “precedent case law.” You don’t just discuss the original text, you study how its interpretation has developed over time. The Constitution and con-law cases are studied in other courses as relevant. [QUOTE=Antinor01] 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? [/quote] Practicing lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/16 "2008-06-12T11:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] On another board I was given a challenge and I would like to poll the US lawyers to give an answer. (Don’t ask why I beat my head against right wing walls and their forums, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment) 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. 2. Have you read your states Constitution. 3. In what state do you reside? 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? (Sorry non-US law types, this is specific to the US) [/QUOTE] Yes to all of the above. There is more precedent read because for each word of a constitution there are multiple cases interpreting it. NY resident, I’ve read both NY and CT (CT for s&g’s – I used to live there). Non practicing … I have no idea what I am, but I have the right to practice law. I think one of the easiest and quickest ways of disabusing someone of such a notion/talking point is to ask them what due process means. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/17 "2008-06-12T12:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. 2. Have you read your states Constitution. 3. In what state do you reside? 4. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) 5. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? [/QUOTE] 1. Yes, I’ve read the whole thing. It’s pretty short and pithy. 2. I’ve read parts of the NY State Constitution, and probably hit the whole thing over the course of my career. Like most state constitutions, it’s dry and convoluted. 3. New York. 4. I took the required course in Constitutional Law my first year. My professor’s method was to go through the whole thing, emphasizing its function as a blueprint for the federal government. Of course we studied case law, but most of what we looked at were the cases interpreting the balance of powers among the branches of the federal government and the states. We only spend a day or so on Constitutional criminal law and another day or so on civil rights. 5. Practicing lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Flipshod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@Flipshod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flipshod)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/18 "2008-06-12T13:20:34Z")
1. yes 2. parts of it 3. GA 4. has been discussed well above 5. practicing ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/19 "2008-06-12T13:25:03Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. [/QUOTE] Yes. > [@](#): > > 1. Have you read your states Constitution. Yes. Not every state that I’ve lived in, but every state in which I did a significant amount of legal research for (Hawaii, Michigan, Nevada, and Ohio come to mind). > [@](#): > > 1. In what state do you reside? Now, Michigan; previously, other states. > [@](#): > > 1. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) We never had a course where we were required to regurgitate the text of the constitution in law school. We studied sections of it, mostly in the context of cases or arguments made by commentators. I usually have a copy nearby because I don’t have the whole thing memorized. > [@](#): > > 1. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? Practicing lawyer. Licensed in Michigan and Hawaii (inactive). ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631/20 "2008-06-12T13:45:31Z")
On another board I was given a challenge and I would like to poll the US lawyers to give an answer. (Don’t ask why I beat my head against right wing walls and their forums, I guess I’m just a glutton for punishment) 1. Have you read the constitution of the United States. Yes, many times - even before Law School. 1. Have you read your states Constitution. Yes, more than once. 1. In what state do you reside? Wyoming 1. Did you study the Constitution in law school or is precedent case law more emphasized? (feel free to expand a bit on this point if you like) It really depended on the class, and even in classes where the Constitution was read extensively (Con Law, Criminal Procedure, 1st Amendment Jurisprudence), the Constitution was usually read and interpreted using applicable case law. 1. Are you a judge, practicing lawyer, retired lawyer or law student? Practicing Attorney [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-law-students-and-judges-a-poll/452631.md?page=2)