# "Lawyers say they'll appeal" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835 "2023-05-10T03:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/21 "2023-05-10T18:18:11Z")
Just to add on to this. It’s not uncommon for rich people to hire appellate attorneys to help with and during the trial case. They would assist the trial lawyers to determine the best possible things to object to and which have the best chance to win on appeal. They generally sit in the gallery. I remember during one of the Enron guys trial, something happened in Court and there was an objection to something that played out. You could see two “people” high five each other in the gallery seats. Those two people were high-priced (but young, because they high-fived) appellate attorneys and what they wanted to happened during the trial went exactly as they had wanted. Obviously it didn’t pan out, but it took multiple appellate lawyers working with the trial lawyers to be able to properly preserve one issue for appeal. I imagine dozens of lawyers worked to preserved dozens of grounds for appeal and were all paid a shit ton of money. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/22 "2023-05-10T19:38:50Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You can’t make a plea deal in exchange for a guilty plea if you’ve already plead guilty at arraignment Can a plea deal be made before arraignment? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/23 "2023-05-10T19:43:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if your client was just found guilty, you as a lawyer have to assume there was a correctable flaw in the trial Even if the client is actually guilty? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/24 "2023-05-10T20:15:53Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > In Trump’s case the question of whether he has any arguable case on appeal doesn’t really factor into the decision to appeal. Trump is famous for multiplying and spinning out legal proceedings as a tactic to oppress adversaries with limited resources (such as Carroll). So he would not only announce an intention to appeal but almost certainly pursue an appeal to the bitter end regardless of the strength of this case or the prospects for success. I can’t believe that anybody would consider not making the call of guilty given how much spew he had on video about how he can kill someone on 5th Avenue, grab them by the p\*ssy, everybody famous does it, everybody has done it for millions of years - and this type of crap has been spewed for at least 40 years, not my type … yikes. He demonstrates a complete lack of compassion and honesty, and I know it wouldn’t be admissible, but he screwed around with Melania on his previous wife, with his previous wife with THAT previous wife, paid prostitutes, and who knows how many other women were portuned, he did have the ‘habit’ of just barging into the women’s dressing rooms at the pagent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/25 "2023-05-10T20:29:34Z")
[Moderating] This thread is in FQ, and isn’t about Trump specifically. Commentary about Trump specifically would fit in just fine in any of the P&E or Pit threads on this topic. Keep the politics out of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/26 "2023-05-10T20:31:31Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Even if the client is actually guilty? And this is something a lawyer can know with certainty? In real life, the client who believes themself guilty may not be trustworthy about it for whatever reason (covering for somebody else, psychological issues, whatever). But generally, “actual” guilt is an odd thing to be discussing. They should be discussing the facts, evidence, etc that relate to the legal defense. Drawing conclusions based on those elements as to guilt or liability is supposed to be for the jury or judge. If their guilt is something the lawyer has merely deduced, they need to be asking themselves why they are even trying to make that determination for themselves and if they should be representing anybody at all. Of course, there are cases where somebody has incontrovertibly committed the acts for which they have been accused, but it is still up to judge/jury to determine if those incontrovertible facts add up to a decision of guilt or liability and whatever consequences should result. Ethically, the lawyer still needs to mount the best defense possible within the bounds of the law. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/27 "2023-05-10T20:31:52Z")
“Factually guilty” and “convicted in error” are not mutually exclusive. If the correct verdict was reached in an unjust fashion, appealing to force the prosecution to try again, _fairly_, is the correct outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/28 "2023-05-10T20:50:55Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > > [@Dissonance](#): > > > > You can’t make a plea deal in exchange for a guilty plea if you’ve already plead guilty at arraignment > > Can a plea deal be made before arraignment? IANAL, but as I understand it, arraignment is the defendant’s first appearance before the court, where they are formally charged and enter a plea, so I’d imagine no since they haven’t actually been charged with anything yet. [arraignment | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/arraignment#:~:text=An%20arraignment%20is%20the%20first,e.g.%20County%20of%20Riverside%20v.) > An arraignment is the first step in a [criminal proceeding](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/criminal_procedure) where the [defendant](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defendant) is brought in front of the [court](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/court) to hear the [charges](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/charge) against them and enter a [plea](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/plea). ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/29 "2023-05-10T23:19:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > IANAL, but as I understand it, arraignment is the defendant’s first appearance before the court, where they are formally charged and enter a plea, so I’d imagine no since they haven’t actually been charged with anything yet. Almost all of this is right. But a person being arraigned for a crime has already been charged. Either an information or misdemeanor citation (in some jurisdictions) or an indictment has been filed with the court already. Arraignment is a formal step of being informed of the charges, and, if one qualifies, counsel has to be appointed by/at the arraignment. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/30 "2023-05-11T02:41:27Z")
There is an enormous excluded middle here, though. There is no obligation on defence attorneys to say anything. And there is the option of saying something like “my client will be carefully considering the judgement before deciding on next steps” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/31 "2023-05-11T14:45:47Z")
I have heard (so probably not true) that in civil cases the appeal is to buy time for settlement. BigCorp Inc. has no intention to actually pay the $50,000,000 judgement you just won so they appeal to start the negotiation of what they will actually pay. Any truth to that? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/32 "2023-05-11T14:58:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > IANAL, but as I understand it, arraignment is the defendant’s first appearance before the court, where they are formally charged and enter a plea, so I’d imagine no since they haven’t actually been charged with anything yet. I’ve seen a number of examples where a plea agreement is negotiated before charges are filed. It’s not uncommon for white collar defendants to know that they are under investigation and to be in active talks with the prosecutors. So, you can negotiate a situation where a defendant is charged (usually through an information rather than indictment) with an agreed-upon set of charges and plead guilty at the arraignment (pursuant to an agreement). ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/33 "2023-05-11T17:47:04Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I have heard (so probably not true) that in civil cases the appeal is to buy time for settlement. I have heard (same caveat) that whenever you hear “BigCorp was ordered to pay $50,000,000”, The award is always reduced by an order of magnitude or three on appeal. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/34 "2023-05-11T18:03:19Z")
I’m not sure “buy time” is the best description. Negotiation tool? Strategic move? I mean, ideally, you at least think you have a decent shot at winning. When the verdict comes in with a big number attached, it’s going to recalibrate what the case is worth. So, you file your appeal, and try to estimate your chances of winning. If you do win, you likely have to try the case again, with a risk of the same or worse result. So, settlement negotiations can move quite a bit more towards the plaintiff’s number. The plaintiff has some risk of having their award reversed or reduced. Settling while the appeal is pending can be a very attractive move in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/35 "2023-05-11T18:18:59Z")
I don’t know if it’s true, but what is BigCorp’s negotiating position if they have already lost? I’m not sure what the plaintiff’s recourse is if they simply don’t pay, but if they don’t pay a court-ordered award who would believe they would pay anything that they negotiated? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/36 "2023-05-11T18:23:52Z")
> [@Seren359](#): > > The more appeals the lawyer makes the bigger their bill! If your client actually, you know- _pays_ your bill. Or any bills for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/37 "2023-05-11T18:33:30Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I’m not sure “buy time” is the best description Maybe it’s more of: while the case is going on we can still settle. Once the case it over there is no chance to settle so an appeal simply keeps the case open. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > but if they don’t pay a court-ordered award who would believe they would pay anything that they negotiated? Because the settlement is signed once the check is delivered. Otherwise it’s back to the original amount. There are cases of companies not paying judgements and the person enforces the lien on them. It is interesting once you start seizing office equipment how quickly BigCorp can **NOW** come up with the money. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2023, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/38 "2023-05-11T22:38:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Keep the politics out of this one. Yes, a very very important point in the legal system - each case is about the _facts_ that can be presented over this singular incident. A person’s overall character, or “of course he’s the type who would do it” is irrelevant. Even past history is relatively difficult to include as evidence, unless it displays a pattern of the same sort of incident. (For example, the defendant’s criminal record cannot be presente during a criminal trial) And while a ruling aginst the defendant “that evidence can be included” may present grounds for appeal, keep in mind the judge ruled against that motion already - that makes it an additional hurdle for the defense on appeal to explain how the judge is wrong. The leverage to negotiate during an appeal, as others mention, is that sometimes jury awards tend to be emotionally (it seems) excessive, and the appeals court will reduce the award substantially. (Hot coffee from McD’s, anyone?). So where the initial pretrial negotiations were betting on win or loss, the appeal negotiations are based on how likely the appeal court will reduce the verdict by how much. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/39 "2023-05-12T13:45:46Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > A person’s overall character, or “of course he’s the type who would do it” is irrelevant. Aren’t character witnesses sometimes used to testify that “of course he’s not the type who would do it”? Or is that just on TV? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2023, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835/40 "2023-05-12T13:58:01Z")
That’s a choice by the accused (in criminal matters). The prosecution is barred from putting the accused’s character in issue. The prosecution’s job is to show that the accused committed the specific crime charged, and can’t bolster their case by painting the accused as a bad guy who would likely commit the offence. As noted upthread, the accused’s criminal record can’t be entered at trial. However, the accused is entitled to put their character in record. It’s a risky move, because doing so then allows the prosecution to lead counter-evidence of past bad acts. So if a bookkeeper is on trial for embezzlement, and has previously been convicted of embezzlement, the prosecution is not allowed to enter the previous conviction. However, if the bookkeeper chooses to testify and says « I would never embezzle from my clients », the prosecution now could enter the prior conviction, as rebuttal evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-say-theyll-appeal/983835.md?page=3)