# Lawyers, what is a driver in this situation able to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114 "2012-09-08T19:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/21 "2012-09-09T01:41:57Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Tough call, and it’s easy to think it over in the safety of my house. I would probably have bolted as soon as people started jumping on the car. And, again, I would have slowly plowed on through, so that idiots like the cyclist could get out the way (or not, up to him). I would not be punching the gas and leaving in a wave of mangled people. I think. Again, easy to decide the proper course after the fact and when I’m not the guy sitting in the car. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/22 "2012-09-09T02:00:52Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I understand the chest thumping rhetoric and hyperbole, but do you really think the cyclist should be in prison for an extended period of time? I want everyone who commits crimes that put people in danger in prison. That’s why we have them. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/23 "2012-09-09T02:32:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Uh, no. I didn’t say “extended”. YOU said extended. But yes, through him into prison. It’s throw. You throw someone in prison. Unless you want him to just kinda pass through prison on his way somewhere else. > [@magellan](#): > > If one could know ahead of time that the only thing that would happen is that a car would be damaged, this wouldn’t be as big a deal. But everything escalated. The guy was increasingly terrorized. They went from dancing around the vehicle, to dancing on it, to stomping on it and breaking windows. That douchebag made it all possible by preventing that guy from leaving the scene. So, yes, lock him up with whomever else is in there. That’s not my concern. My concern is to not have assholes like that do that to another guy. Where the next time, an innocent person’s head is what gets stomped. Got it. What do we do with a guy who puts a monumental beating on someone while knowing next to nothing about the guy or the situation? > [@magellan](#): > > Oh, cry me a river. Here’s the thing: don’t want to be grouped in with assholes and be treated like them, don’t act like them. Seems pretty easy. People should be held accountable for their actions. Especially when they are so dangerous. Accountable? yes. Thrown in prison? Well that’s a big fucking deal. You seem willing to throw someone in prison or beat them based solely on a 5 minute clip of video you saw online. Me? I kinda want more facts about it. > [@magellan](#): > > Please. The guy was locked in his car. The crowd went from just having raucous fun to getting violent, as mobs are wont to do. That’s what makes them so dangerous and scary. And that’s why if that guy ran that douchebag over trying to get out of there I think he should be given a medal. Great. You’re more than willing to make a snap judgment and administer beatings and prison on someone based on a tiny bit of information. Gosh, I wonder what a mob of magellans would do? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/24 "2012-09-09T02:34:42Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > I want everyone who commits crimes that put people in danger in prison. That’s why we have them. > > –Cliffy What do you know about this guy? His employment? What family he has? Who is relying on him to make money? Is this the only trouble he’s ever been in? Is he a Peace Corp volunteer or a serial killer who you luck out on catching because of this case? Did the guy in the white volvo try to run him over or was he picking a fight with some poor driver? The only thing I’m bothered by is the drawing of life-changing conclusions without nearly enough facts. Just as the mob who decided it was fine if they destroyed this guys’ car because some biker was pissed at him, so are the people who are crying for prison time or monumental beatings for said biker. Everyone needs to calm the fuck down until all the facts are known. This cry for blood and prison without regard for knowing the full facts or the history of the people involved is not much a step up from a mob of idiots stomping on a car. I’m just heartened by the fact that this is some silly message board and not real life. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/25 "2012-09-09T02:43:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > It’s throw. You throw someone in prison. Unless you want him to just kinda pass through prison on his way somewhere else. 😃 > [@Hamlet](#): > > Got it. What do we do with a guy who puts a monumental beating on someone while knowing next to nothing about the guy or the situation? Wow, only if we had a video of his actions. Look, I allow for the driver being at fault for the initial whatever the hell happened. And as I’ve said, let the guy block the driver and give him a piece of his mind. I’ve done the same myself while on my bike. But when that guy’s blocking the car results in the mob doing what it did, and continues only because the douchebag wouldn’t get out of the way, I have adequate information. I would have loved to see the c=guy get out of the car, the crowd kinda step back and watch and cheer as the guy beat the shit out of the douche and beat tied the bike around his neck. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Accountable? yes. Thrown in prison? Well that’s a big fucking deal. You seem willing to throw someone in prison or beat them based solely on a 5 minute clip of video you saw online. Me? I kinda want more facts about it. See above. His continuing to block egress after things escalated makes him the guilty douche he is. > [@Hamlet](#): > > Great. You’re more than willing to make a snap judgment and administer beatings and prison on someone based on a tiny bit of information. Gosh, I wonder what a mob of magellans would do? No snap judgement involved. We have the tape, and it’s not some “tiny” ten-second clip. If that were the case, I’d be very much in agreement with you. But that’s not the case. So you’re defense of the douche in light of the info we DO have is puzzling, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/26 "2012-09-09T02:50:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No snap judgement involved. We have the tape, and it’s not some “tiny” ten-second clip. If that were the case, I’d be very much in agreement with you. But that’s not the case. So you’re defense of the douche in light of the info we DO have is puzzling, to say the least. I’m not defending “the douche”. I’m simply pointing out that your desire for a monumental beating and prison time for a guy that you know next to nothing about is not a huge step up from a mob of idiots who decide it’s fine to stomp on some guy’s car because some biker was blocking his way and shouting at him. You think a 10 minute video clip on the internet without context is more than enough to call for beatings and prison. I think it’s better to get all the facts and find out what kind of people are involved before rendering a life changing judgment. C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/27 "2012-09-09T02:55:20Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m not defending “the douche”. I’m simply pointing out that your desire for a monumental beating and prison time for a guy that you know next to nothing about is not a huge step up from a mob of idiots who decide it’s fine to stomp on some guy’s car because some biker was blocking his way and shouting at him. You think a 10 minute video clip on the internet without context is more than enough to call for beatings and prison. I think it’s better to get all the facts and find out what kind of people are involved before rendering a life changing judgment. C’est la vie. You do realize that prison time is preceded by an arrest, and a trial, right? As far as the beating, if just before the end of the video the guy got out of the car and beat the shit out of the punk, from what we can see in the video, justified or not? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/28 "2012-09-09T03:10:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You do realize that prison time is preceded by an arrest, and a trial, right? If you had said you wanted to wait until trial, a full revelation of the facts, and a pre-sentence investigation, we wouldn’t have a least bit of a problem. But you didn’t. You called for the result (beating and prison), before you could be bothered with the rest of it. > [@magellan](#): > > As far as the beating, if just before the end of the video the guy got out of the car and beat the shit out of the punk, from what we can see in the video, justified or not? So I don’t run afoul of SDMB rules, I’ll requote you with emphasis on what I find important: > [@magellan](#): > > As far as the beating, if just before the end of the video the guy got out of the car and beat the shit out of the punk, **FROM WHAT WE CAN SEE IN THE VIDEO** , justified or not? I want more information before making a judgment like that. You don’t think having all the information is as important. And your view is much, much closer to the view of the mob than I am comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/29 "2012-09-09T04:57:18Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > So you want him in prison, but only if it’s minimum security? And the felony conviction and likely loss of employment works for you? Fair enough. I pointed out that your view of prison sounded like you didn’t know that prison varied extensively. I have no opinion on whether the guy belongs in jail or not, for any duration of time. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/30 "2012-09-09T05:46:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > What do you know about this guy? His employment? What family he has? Who is relying on him to make money? Is this the only trouble he’s ever been in? Is he a Peace Corp volunteer or a serial killer who you luck out on catching because of this case? Did the guy in the white volvo try to run him over or was he picking a fight with some poor driver? > > The only thing I’m bothered by is the drawing of life-changing conclusions without nearly enough facts. Just as the mob who decided it was fine if they destroyed this guys’ car because some biker was pissed at him, so are the people who are crying for prison time or monumental beatings for said biker. Everyone needs to calm the fuck down until all the facts are known. This cry for blood and prison without regard for knowing the full facts or the history of the people involved is not much a step up from a mob of idiots stomping on a car. I’m just heartened by the fact that this is some silly message board and not real life. What we know about the personal life and history of the biker is IMO irrelevant to whatever charges should be made against him by prosecutors. It is more appropriate to consider these when determining what punishment there will be – assuming a charge and conviction. It is unfortunate that in many jurisdictions that judges aren’t allowed to take individual circumstances into account for sentencing purposes. Public anger and resulting legislation has largely taken discretion out of judge’s hands. And the reason why, IMO, is that the public never hears about cases where discretion was used appropriately – we only learned about cases where it was abused, or _appeared_ to be abused, because we almost get the full story of everything that was considered in arriving at a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/31 "2012-09-09T16:24:20Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I want more information before making a judgment like that. You don’t think having all the information is as important. So you simply can’t answer a simple question with the understanding that your answer would be based on a certain set of facts. You can’t say, that based on the information available right now, I would do \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_—but I would be uncomfortable actually acting on that limited amount of information. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/32 "2012-09-09T16:36:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’d say you’re probably right up until windows get broken. His situation gets watched up considerably once that happens. We can’t see that on the video, but we do know that at least one window got smashed. And that point, I think the guy is justified in getting out of there. Now, as it turns out, he chose the right course of action, as the cops finally showed up. But I don’t think he was required to wait any longer. I think he should have gently rolled ahead giving the douche ample opportunity to move. If he didn’t and wanted to ascribe to the level of Rachel Corey stupidity, well, the world’s got plenty of stupid in it. This. And I think he would be cleared by a jury, if not the prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/33 "2012-09-10T14:18:56Z")
The Volvo should have just plowed through. None of those pieces of shit look like they would be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/34 "2012-09-10T23:51:29Z")
Looking at that video, I would have been driving _through_ the crowd at about two minutes, and fuck whomever got in my way. I’d rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6. I’m outta there… ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/35 "2012-09-11T00:06:30Z")
OK, too late to edit. When I started the vid, it began at about 3 minutes in, and starting it from the beginning, my 2 minutes statement wasn’t valid. When they started jumping on my car is when I would have been plowing through the crowd. “Fuck you, Sorry, Fuck you”, as needed to slap a “B” for “boogie”, and get the fuck out of there. The bicyclist was the first dead meat I would have left, unless he was smart enough to realize that his bluff “You won’t run me over” was _wrong_. Deadly wrong. He would have been the first. I would not have hesitated to plow others… ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/36 "2012-09-12T17:47:53Z")
When I was 17 or 18, not long after I’d learnt to drive, I was at a convenience store late at night and ran into the neighbourhood thug who for whatever reason had it in for me. He had two or three of his friends with him, and I decided it was a good idea to leave. As I made my way to my car, which was parked outside, they started to give me some verbal abuse and start a fight (not likely as I was totally outnumbered). I got in my car, locked the doors and started the engine, and they stood in front, blocking my exit. One of them sat on the bonnet of the car, and they started hitting the bodywork and windows - not enough to cause any damage, but still not welcome. I just drove forward, very slowly, so they could either move or be pushed along/out of the way. They fairly quickly decided to move. Honestly, if you’re in a car, and you decide to move, the obnoxious person in your way is going to get out of the way pretty fast, unless they are dumb enough to really want to get hurt. Obviously I don’t condone trying to injure anybody; just encouraging them to get out of the damn way. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/37 "2012-09-12T19:40:44Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Looking at that video, I would have been driving _through_ the crowd at about two minutes, and fuck whomever got in my way. I’d rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6. I’m outta there… The only issue is that traffic can be pretty congested around Bleecker Street. So you may push through the crowd only to get stuck at the next intersection. And now you have a raging mob after you. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/38 "2012-09-12T19:52:03Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > OK, too late to edit. When I started the vid, it began at about 3 minutes in, and starting it from the beginning, my 2 minutes statement wasn’t valid. When they started jumping on my car is when I would have been plowing through the crowd. “Fuck you, Sorry, Fuck you”, as needed to slap a “B” for “boogie”, and get the fuck out of there. The bicyclist was the first dead meat I would have left, unless he was smart enough to realize that his bluff “You won’t run me over” was _wrong_. Deadly wrong. He would have been the first. I would not have hesitated to plow others… ``` It wasn't just the bicyclist that was blocking him, all the streets were filled with people, some involved in the altercation but many just out for the night. I doubt you could have "boogied" it out of there without hitting them as well. So your end result, several (some possibly innocent) severely injured or dead, and you at best facing huge lawyer bills at worst looking at a long stretch in the state pen. I think the actual driver who just called 911 and waited for the authorities ended up in a much better situation in the end. I could see trying to slowly inching forward as working too, but that might also be the provocation that turns the crowd from unruly to violent. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/39 "2012-09-12T21:13:30Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > It wasn’t just the bicyclist that was blocking him, all the streets were filled with people, some involved in the altercation but many just out for the night. I doubt you could have “boogied” it out of there without hitting them as well. So your end result, several (some possibly innocent) severely injured or dead, and you at best facing huge lawyer bills at worst looking at a long stretch in the state pen. I think the actual driver who just called 911 and waited for the authorities ended up in a much better situation in the end. I could see trying to slowly inching forward as working too, but that might also be the provocation that turns the crowd from unruly to violent. As Colophon says, moving slowly, nobody gets “hit”. They choose whether to get out of the way, or be pushed. The crowd wasn’t too thick for people to have room to get out of the way. The bike may have gone under wheels. Oh how sad. On the other hand, that big a crowd might have the ability to stop the car, or make things a lot worse. Driving ahead would have been risky, but I wouldn’t blame anyone for doing it, slowly enough for people to get out of the way. The smug bicyclist should be brought to trial, perhaps for reckless endangerment. He was intentionally causing trouble, and deserves a bunch of trouble himself. He should also be partially liable for damages to the car. I hope they track him down and he gets what he deserves, and that it gets on the news as a lesson to others. As soon as things started getting ugly, he should have realized that it could lead to serious trouble, but no, he stayed there. That’s criminal. If the driver had been killed by the mob, he’d have been culpable. Fortunately, nobody was injured. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114/40 "2012-09-15T07:23:48Z")
Here’s a bit of an update. The cops are looking for two people: the douchebag who broke the window on the car and the douchebag maximus who blocked the car with his bike. Looks like they’ll be charging him with “inciting to riot”. I hopt they get him and teach him a lesson that will make him cry in his sleep for a year. [Update.](http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/09/12/nypd-seeks-two-people-for-inciting-to-riot-in-fno-bleecker-street-chaos/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lawyers-what-is-a-driver-in-this-situation-able-to-do/634114.md?page=3)