# Lay or Lie? Help, please. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236 "2009-08-13T00:11:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Calluses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Calluses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calluses)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/1 "2009-08-13T00:11:25Z")
This is the first time I dare post and I’m afraid I have a stupid question: I am appealing to the grammarians out there for help. I’ve looked around on the web and consulted a few books, but can’t figure out which sentence is correct: “What does one do when a problem **lies** with the basic construction of the piece?” or “What does one do when a problem **lay** with the basic construction of the piece?”. I suspect the correct word is “lies”, but I’m not 100% sure, and can’t figure out any way to know. Can anyone help me and explain why the correct answer is correct? -Calluses ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/2 "2009-08-13T00:15:54Z")
In this situation, **lies** is present tense, **lay** is past tense. Since it’s a question, **lies** is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/3 "2009-08-13T00:23:01Z")
In general, this is how I do it: **To lie** is used when you’re lying down, say, for a nap. Simple past tense is “lay” or (sometimes) “lied.” It’s an intransitive verb. **To lay** is used when you’re, say, laying a sheet of paper down on the table. Simple past tense is “laid.” It’s a transitive verb, so it has to have an object. As **Oy!** says, in this case it’s “lies” because it’s both intransitive and present tense. It’s intransitive because it uses a preposition before its object (“lies _with_”) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/4 "2009-08-13T00:24:12Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > In this situation, **lies** is present tense **lay** is past tense. Since it’s a question, **lies** is correct. It’s not a question. It’s an adverbial clause, which has no tense per se. _Lie_ is instransitive, as in _Please lie still_. _Lay_ is transitive (it takes an object), as in: _Please lay the book on the table_. So use _lie_. Although _lay_ is the past form of _lie_, that is irrelevant here. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/5 "2009-08-13T00:26:07Z")
Ah, **guizot** , great minds think alike. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/6 "2009-08-13T00:28:12Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > It’s not a question. _What does one do when a problem lies with the basic construction of the piece?_ is not a question? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/7 "2009-08-13T00:34:21Z")
> [@Calluses](#): > > “What does one do when a problem **lay** with the basic construction of the piece?” The clause might also correctly be constructed in the subjunctive mood (which has no tense): _What does one do when a problem lie with the basic construction of the piece?_ Or: “Should the problem lie with the basic construction of the piece, what is one to do?” Etc. In most modern usage, it’s constructed usually like this: _What does one do if a problem should lie with the basic construction of the piece?_ Note, though, that this is somewhat archaic, and is semantically slightly different. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/8 "2009-08-13T00:37:57Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > _What does one do when a problem lies with the basic construction of the piece?_ is not a question? I didn’t say that. _…when a problem lies with the basic construction of the piece…_ is not a question. As I said above, it’s an adverbial clause. _When one jumps to conclusions, one sometimes errs._ (No question there, either.) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/9 "2009-08-13T00:49:02Z")
I didn’t want to confuse **Calluses** with transitive vs. intransitive, especially since **lay** is in fact the past tense of **to lie**. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/10 "2009-08-13T00:57:17Z")
Wow, I totally misunderstood the thread title. I thought you were asking if you should have sex with someone, or lie to them in order to avoid it. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/11 "2009-08-13T01:05:05Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Wow, I totally misunderstood the thread title. I thought you were asking if you should have sex with someone, or lie to them in order to avoid it. Seriously. Well, the forum it’s currently in doesn’t help that. I’ll see if I can get it moved to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/12 "2009-08-13T01:23:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, the forum it’s currently in doesn’t help that. True, especially given the other threads at the top of Page 1: \*\* Should I date him? Ever been tied up? Yes, in THAT sense. Miss China: Tranny?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/13 "2009-08-13T01:29:56Z")
\ Moved to _General Questions_. IMHO \> GQ ( **Calluses** , no problem at all. Glad to have you on board. Welcome!) \ ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/14 "2009-08-13T01:34:11Z")
Just remember, _laid_ is the past tense of Friday date night. _Lie_ is what you tell to keep it a secret. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/15 "2009-08-13T02:04:39Z")
> [@Calluses](#): > > This is the first time I dare post and I’m afraid I have a stupid question: > > I am appealing to the grammarians out there for help. I’ve looked around on the web and consulted a few books, but can’t figure out which sentence is correct: “What does one do when a problem **lies** with the basic construction of the piece?” or “What does one do when a problem **lay** with the basic construction of the piece?”. > > I suspect the correct word is “lies”, but I’m not 100% sure, and can’t figure out any way to know. Can anyone help me and explain why the correct answer is correct? > > -Calluses Both can be correct, depending on the nuance of what you want to say. A piece was constructed. The construction had flaws and something bad resulted. What does one do when a problem lay with the basic construction of the piece? Very little, because what happened was in the past. Just deal with the consequences of the flaws. A piece is being constructed. The construction has flaws and something bad may result. What does one do when a problem lies with the basic construction of the piece? Why, fix the flaws, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/16 "2009-08-13T04:14:56Z")
Someone or something lies (when not prevaricating) when it is resting in a place without moving, or is placing itself into such a resting state – it is a description of what the subject is doing. (And of course the past tense of _lie_ with this meaning is _lay_.) I lie down to sleep, the paper lies on the desk, let sleeping dogs lie. Someone or something lays something else somewhere. (The something else then lies there.) I lay the book on the table, the pallbearers lay the coffin in the grave. The successful lover will lay his girl, i.e., he will lay her down and make love to her. Poetic or dialectal usage will use “to lay oneself” for “to lie”; for bonnie Annie Laurie, the singer will lay him(self) doon and dee. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/17 "2009-08-13T09:30:58Z")
**Chief Pedant** has the answer which specifically answers the OP’s question. **Polycarp** , you are confusing the present tenses of two different verbs – _lie_ and _lay_ with the present and past tenses of the verb _lie_ – _lie_ and _lay_. It is the second grouping of _lie_ and _lay_ that are used in the example given in the OP. The difference in the two questions is tense, not a matter of whether an object is being placed or not. Of course, **Chief Pedant** explained this much more clearly in his post, but I thought I would add to the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/18 "2009-08-13T10:58:58Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I didn’t say that. > > _…when a problem lies with the basic construction of the piece…_ > > is not a question. As I said above, it’s an adverbial clause. The _it_ that \*\*Oy! \*\*referred to is a question, and you quoted \*\*Oy! \*\*. You said “it”, the antecedent of which is the question. Yes, the question contains the clause, but so what? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/19 "2009-08-13T12:55:26Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Chief Pedant** has the answer which specifically answers the OP’s question. > > **Polycarp** , you are confusing the present tenses of two different verbs – _lie_ and _lay_ with the present and past tenses of the verb _lie_ – _lie_ and _lay_. It is the second grouping of _lie_ and _lay_ that are used in the example given in the OP. > > The difference in the two questions is tense, not a matter of whether an object is being placed or not. > > Of course, **Chief Pedant** explained this much more clearly in his post, but I thought I would add to the confusion. What am I, chopped liver? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236/20 "2009-08-13T13:00:50Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > The _it_ that \*\*Oy! \*\*referred to is a question, and you quoted \*\*Oy! \*\*. You said “it”, the antecedent of which is the question. Yes, the question contains the clause, but so what? So the fact that the sentence as a whole is a question has nothing to do with the OP’s concern, namely, the _purely semantic_ (_ **not** _ grammatical) issue of whether to use _lie_ or _lay_. The verb choice which OP faces is embedded in the subordinated clause, not the main (question) clause. OP would face the same choice if the whole sentence were something like this: \*One does not know what to do when a problem lies/lays with the basic construction of the piece. \* No question, same problem. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lay-or-lie-help-please/506236.md?page=2)