# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/181 "2016-02-04T15:32:12Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > According to the following article, the day after Flint agreed to join the KWA water district and part ways from Detroit, Detroit voted to suspend water sales to Flint. There is no mention of being behind on payments. Since the conversion to the KWA would take three years, Flint had to find another water source. That action put Flint in a bind, and I question whether it was legal or not considering the ramifications. > > It wasn’t Governor Snyder dictating that Flint turn a valve and start drawing from the Flint River save a few bucks. > > [How the Flint water crisis emerged - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#2) You mean that the Emergency Manager of Flint and a bunch of State officials under Snyder rejected all offers to renew the water contract from Detroit (which was under its OWN emergency Manager at the time) which caused Detroit to give a one year termination notice. I don’t know how reasonable those offers were but Flint was being charged a premium because of its altitude and distance from Detroit. So in a sense, this was two Snyder appointees fighting over their own bottom lines that led to Flint getting it drinking water from the Flint river (with the oversight and approval from other Snyder appointees). And its not like elected officials from Detroit turned off the tap (so I don’t see where you get the idea that Detroit voted to turn off the tap on Flint). Flint could have continued to purchase water from Detroit but in an effort to save about $5 million during the period between when the contract with Detroit lapsed and the time when the new water supply came online, they decided to reject Detroit’s offer and treat water from Flint river as an interim measure. The Flint water treatment facility cost about $4 million. So as I understand it, they switched from Detroit water to barely treated water from the Flint river to save a million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/182 "2016-02-04T16:07:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean that the Emergency Manager of Flint and a bunch of State officials under Snyder rejected all offers to renew the water contract from Detroit (which was under its OWN emergency Manager at the time) which caused Detroit to give a one year termination notice. I don’t know how reasonable those offers were but Flint was being charged a premium because of its altitude and distance from Detroit. > > So in a sense, this was two Snyder appointees fighting over their own bottom lines that led to Flint getting it drinking water from the Flint river (with the oversight and approval from other Snyder appointees). > > And its not like elected officials from Detroit turned off the tap (so I don’t see where you get the idea that Detroit voted to turn off the tap on Flint). Flint could have continued to purchase water from Detroit but in an effort to save about $5 million during the period between when the contract with Detroit lapsed and the time when the new water supply came online, they decided to reject Detroit’s offer and treat water from Flint river as an interim measure. The Flint water treatment facility cost about $4 million. So as I understand it, they switched from Detroit water to barely treated water from the Flint river to save a million dollars. Actually, it’s looking like it’s worse than that. Detroit Water and Sewerage did everything they could to keep Flint. Even offer them a savings, [according to an email sent by DWSD Director Sue McCormick in April 2013](http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2016/01/25/new-emails-reveal-the-switch-to-the-flint-river-was-not-about-saving-money). Switching water to the Flint River was, it would seem, NOT about saving Flint money. The state’s Emergency Manager didn’t even save Flint money in the process, yet they wanted us to believe this. > [@](#): > > Why Flint’s EM leadership (the folks answering to Lansing) would say no to a deal that would save money — when the whole point of all this is to save money — raises a lot of questions. As one email from DSWD candidly put it: “the KWA pipeline can only be attributed to a ‘political’ objective that has nothing to do with the delivery – or the price – of water.” > > But here is the best part (we use the word “best” liberally — it’s in fact the worst part), after Lansing started getting flack for the water in Flint, after the Flint Water Study started producing research showing elevated levels of lead in Flint households, ACLU-Michigan confronted Gov. Snyder’s then-press secretary Sara Wurfel to find out what was going on. In a now somewhat infamous video created by Kate Levy and Curt Guyette, Wurfel — who is married to disgraced MDEQ spokesperson Brad Wurfel — told the reporters that the decision to switch water sources was because of Detroit. As Wurfel put it: "The Detroit Water and Sewer Department at the time, back last spring, said, ‘Hey, we’re gonna cut you off.’” > > As is amply clear from these new DSWD emails this is not only false, but as far from the truth as a lie can possibly be. DSDW not only tried to accommodate Flint, but it presented **six** (emphasis added) proposals to try to maintain the relationship. So all this comes from 2013. Perhaps it’s not coincidental that Gov. Snyder has released his Flint-related emails from 2014 and 2015, but refuses to release those from 2013. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/183 "2016-02-04T16:26:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I know plenty of people for whom it is a significant factor. > > People from NYC who move to Connecticut for example. Sure its a tradeoff but the decision to leave NYC is driven at least in part by tax concerns. Seems to me that real estate prices dwarf tax concerns in this case. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/184 "2016-02-04T17:48:21Z")
Interested in seeing how the banks respond. You got a thirty year mortgage, say, paid off about half of it, and your equity is diddly squat, because you couldn’t sell your house in Flint for a dollar. So, you walk away, as well as…how many? a thousand? ten thousand? more?..who will simply hand the keys back to the bank, and go live in their car. If they have one… I anticipate a sudden enlightenment, a raging outbreak of humanism and deep concern for the victims here. The _real_ victims, here, the banks stuck with millions…millions? with an “M”?..in property they cannot sell. I expect that their born-again humanism will bear fruit. Only question will be the form, a way for the supposed “victims” to keep their worthless homes, or some means to help out the real victims stuck with the tab. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/185 "2016-02-04T19:25:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Seems to me that real estate prices dwarf tax concerns in this case. Well New York has very high property tax rates but the price of the property was not a factor. Their homes in Connecticut are about as much as what they would have spent in Manhattan. NYC has its own city income tax of over 3.5%. New York State has a 9% income tax rate. Connecticut has a 6% income tax rate. Taxes were a significant factor in moving to Connecticut. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/186 "2016-02-04T22:59:00Z")
So this is new today: Back in March, someone from Genesee County alerted the head of the state’s DEQ that there was a spike in Legionnaires’ disease in Flint and he attributed it to the drinking water from the Flint River. The head of DEQ emailed this info to one of Gov. Snyder’s top aides and director of urban initiatives, Harvey Hollins. Yet almost 11 months go by before Gov. Snyder says he knew about the Legionnaires outbreak. Eighty-seven cases of Legionnaires break out in Flint over a 17-month period-- more than the previous five years combined according to the DEQ-- including 40 in the first few months of 2015 PLUS **nine people died.** Yet Snyder claims he knew nothing about it until January 2016. It gets better. Now Harvey Hollins-- the guy who either \*\*didn’t \*\*tell the governor about the diseased water back in March, or he \*\*did \*\*and now the governor’s lying-- was just named the governor’s point person in the Flint clean-up. [Cite](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/02/04/apnewsbreak-officials-warned-of-water-legionnaires-link/79828466/). All this bullshit coming out of the governor’s office, and yet [according to the governor](http://news.yahoo.com/flint-water-crisis-the-work-of-career-civil-service-people-who-didnt-use-common-sense-says-gov-rick-snyder-141828022.html), it’s Michigan’s “career civil servants” who were lacking common sense in this debacle. Something stinks in Denmark. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/187 "2021-01-12T20:20:18Z")
Bumping to add that [former Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder is expected to be charged for his role in the Flint water crisis (along with his health director and other officials).](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2021/01/12/rick-snyder-charged-flint-water-crisis/6642755002/) > Former Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder, his health director and other ex-officials have been told they’re being charged after a new investigation [of the Flint water scandal](https://www.freep.com/pages/interactives/flint-water-crisis-timeline/), which devastated the majority Black city with lead-contaminated water and was blamed for a deadly outbreak of Legionnaires’ disease in 2014-15, The Associated Press has learned. > > Two people with knowledge of the planned prosecution told the AP on Tuesday that the attorney general’s office has informed defense lawyers about indictments in Flint and told them to expect initial court appearances soon. They spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. To which I say: Good, and good riddance to that wanker and his stooges. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/188 "2021-01-12T21:31:52Z")
Curse your quick fingers, **Happy Lendervedder**! [😃](https://apnews.com/article/Flint-lead-water-crisis-gov-rick-snyder-801ba227340f0ac2e10e37a06a82f08d) It’s not just Snyder: > [@](#): > > Former Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder, his health director and other ex-officials have been told they’re being charged after a new investigation of the Flint water scandal, which devastated the majority Black city with lead-contaminated water and was blamed for a deadly outbreak of Legionnaires’ disease in 2014-15, The Associated Press has learned. > > Two people with knowledge of the planned prosecution told the AP on Tuesday that the attorney general’s office has informed defense lawyers about indictments in Flint and told them to expect initial court appearances soon. They spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. > > The AP could not determine the nature of the charges against Snyder, former health department director Nick Lyon and others who were in the Snyder administration. Courtney Covington Watkins, a spokeswoman for the attorney general’s office, said only that investigators were “working diligently” and “will share more as soon as we’re in a position to do so.” > > Snyder’s attorney didn’t return calls seeking comment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=9)