# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/21 "2016-01-20T19:29:18Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Of course, we need a test for identifying worthless idiots who aren’t fit to run a front-yard lemonade stand. > > Question One for that test: “Appointed a manager who put lead-tainted water into the mains to save money (Y/N)?” While there is a buttload of stupidity to go around in this fiasco… THAT actually wasn’t a choice anyone made to start with. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/22 "2016-01-20T20:07:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Many of the problems of Detroit and Flint are due to the allocation of tax revenue. I ask non-American Dopers to contrast this with tax distribution in their own countries. > > The higher-paid workers in industrial cities like Detroit or Flint tend to locate in suburbs with expensive homes, leaving the poor to congregate in inner city areas. _ **These different areas are incorporated as distinct cities so that property and sales taxes paid by the rich are used for schools and infrastructure enjoyed by the rich, while the poor are dependent on property and sales taxes paid by the poor.** _ This becomes a vicious circle – inner-city schools (and infrastructure for water, sanitation, etc.) are under-financed, so deteriorate, so those with the financial means to move to a better suburb do so, further lessening the tax revenue of the poor areas. > > The effect is exacerbated by ethnic division. [As you can see if you zoom in on this map(\*)](http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html), Michigan is highly “ghettoized” – in a state with 14% black population, Detroit is a whopping 83% black. This ethnic divide makes some voters less sympathetic to the plights of the underfinanced cities that neighbor them. (\* - But I don’t know how to save a link to a specific view after zooming and adding labels.) > > How about countries of Europe? Are local tax revenues spent only in the town or district where raised? Are there ethnic divides as extreme as in Michigan? This is separation of the rich into suburbs and poor into inner cities is not a law of nature it is a failure of government. In many european cities, inner cities are for the rich and well connected and the poor live in the suburbs. The problem is one party rule that values politics over good government. In both Detroit and Flint government did an awful job providing police services and containing crime. They both became crime ridden. They also had high taxes to support large city governments which helped politicians in two ways. One is the Curley effect, which was people who were opposed to high taxes and were more likely to vote Republican moved to a different polity, allowing easier reelections for Democrat politicians. Second, it created a large voting bloc of city employees who were dependent on the politicians for their jobs and would reliably vote for reelection. These powerful groups of city workers would negotiate great benefits for themselves. Currently, Flint devotes one third of its budget to paying retired city employees. The tax base has moved to the suburbs to escape the awful governance of the cities, and the auto factories have moved to places with less unionized labor. This leaves the city unable to raise enough money and the pensions make it impossible to cut the city budget. Thus Detroit does not have enough money to provide water to Flint without huge rate hikes and Flint does not have enough money to pay the huge rate hikes. This is a crisis 50 years in the making and is a harbinger for governments everywhere. Pension obligations will leave many governments unable to pay for the infrastructure they need without raising taxes so high they drive people away. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/23 "2016-01-20T20:09:21Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > One is the Curley effect, which was people who were opposed to high taxes and were more likely to vote Republican moved to a different polity, allowing easier reelections for Democrat politicians. Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/24 "2016-01-20T20:23:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? The Curley Effect is an interesting paper - I never heard of it before this thread. > **[The Curley Effect](https://www.nber.org/papers/w8942)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. Here’s the abstract: > [@](#): > > James Michael Curley, a four-time mayor of Boston, used wasteful redistribution to his poor Irish constituents and incendiary rhetoric to encourage richer citizens to emigrate from Boston, thereby shaping the electorate in his favor. Boston as a consequence stagnated, but Curley kept winning elections. We present a model of the Curley effect, in which inefficient redistributive policies are sought not by interest groups protecting their rents, but by incumbent politicians trying to shape the electorate through emigration of their opponents or reinforcement of class identities. The model sheds light on ethnic politics in the United States and abroad, as well as on class politics in many countries including Britain. It would be interesting to hear a critique of this. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/25 "2016-01-20T20:59:52Z")
I heard much of the “white flight” in Detroit could be partially attributed to [Coleman Young](http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/05/31/president-obamas-wealth-destroying-goal-taking-the-curley-effect-nationwide/#2715e4857a0b48d6645a37a7). The Curley effect is mentioned in the article. In the case of Flint, crime was indeed the reason why my parents moved to the suburbs with me as a toddler. The day we moved the cable box got stolen and the toilet got smashed in the old house. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/26 "2016-01-20T21:00:27Z")
As a practical matter, how hard would it be to replace Flint’s water system? As in the whole thing - put in a treatment plant that could turn runoff from the Bhopal disaster into Chanel No 5, replace every single lead pipe, make the Flint river so clean that a believer would insist on baptizing Baby Jesus in it, et cetera? I realize this would be ruinously expensive. It is also ruinously expensive to have a city that is abandoned by the population because the water isn’t safe to drink. Flint’s priority ought to be going from worst water in the US to best water anywhere but it looks to me like they’re going for the band-aid solution instead. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/27 "2016-01-20T21:19:21Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > I heard much of the “white flight” in Detroit could be partially attributed to [Coleman Young](http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/05/31/president-obamas-wealth-destroying-goal-taking-the-curley-effect-nationwide/#2715e4857a0b48d6645a37a7). Partially perhaps, but it definitely preceded him. I lived in a suburb of Detroit in the late 1970’s and it was lily-white, more or less working class to unexceptional middle class and racist as fuck ( moving there from San Francisco was a bit of a culture shock ). Already there was an attitude of “we were driven out of Detroit by the blacks” and while Coleman had been mayor for a few years at that point, it was obvious that the white flight was not just that recent. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/28 "2016-01-20T22:01:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As a Canadian outsider, it strikes me that the government in that state - at all levels - appears highly dysfunctional: and that this disfunction is shared by Republicans and Democrats, city and state, alike. The fissures between White and Black, Rich and Poor, Republican and Democrat, City and State government - all contribute to that disfunction, are used by all sides to justify it, and more effort is spent on casting blame, corruption-seeking, and ass-covering than on solving the state’s numerous and apparently intractable problems. > > In this case, at least to outward appearances, the Governor is guilty of ass-covering. We will no doubt be treated to a round of blame-casting as a result (fully justified), no doubt followed by corruption-seeking as federal money flows in. All the while, things just get worse for the hapless residents. This reminds me of the Walkerton water tragedy in Ontario, a tainted-water disaster in a small town that was directly and indisputably linked to the election of an incompetent, irresponsible cost-cutting right-wing nutjob as Ontario premier … Fourteen years ago, a provincial government bent on cost-cutting and privatization contributed to a deadly water-borne disaster that unfolded over the Victoria Day long weekend – one that Ontario taxpayers are still paying for … … “Decisions have consequences, cuts have consequences: Safe drinking water is not an optional service,” [said the current Premier]. The E. coli outbreak that engulfed Walkerton killed seven people, including a baby, and sickened about 2,500 others after floods swept farm manure into a vulnerable drinking-water well. An exhaustive judicial inquiry faulted two brothers in charge of the water – they were later criminally convicted – for falsifying records and failing to maintain proper disinfectant levels. However, **the inquiry also found the cost-cutting government of former Tory premier Mike Harris contributed to the tragedy by privatizing water testing and axing Ministry of Environment jobs**. > **[Anniversary of Walkerton tragedy shines spotlight on Tories’ job cuts idea -...](https://globalnews.ca/news/1334138/anniversary-of-walkerton-tragedy-shines-spotlight-on-tories-job-cuts-idea/)** > > 14 years ago, a provincial government bent on cost-cutting and privatization contributed to a deadly water-borne disaster - one that Ontario taxpayers are still paying for. There are many differences here, but there’s no question that Rick Snyder is more or less the Scott Walker of Michigan, the guy who fast-tracked right-to-work (i.e.- union-busting) legislation in Michigan and legislation that authorized the “emergency manager” system in the first place, also giving these managers near absolute power including the right to repeal union contracts. If your objective is cost-cutting and ineffective government, then that’s what you’re likely to get. In some ways the parallels here are rather remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Cardboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Cardboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardboard)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/29 "2016-01-21T01:27:06Z")
The powers in Flint really need to hurry up and fix this problem. I guess you could say they need to _puts on shades_ get the lead out. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/30 "2016-01-21T03:21:45Z")
It seems to me that the city of Detroit is culpable in this disaster. Why would they stop selling water to Flint other than out of spite? If they had kept suppling Flint, there would have been no need to switch to drawing from the Flint River. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/31 "2016-01-21T03:31:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? A few dozen. Maybe this isn’t a thing where you live. But you can get pretty steep changes by moving a few miles. Especially if there’s a state border in the mix. Kids out of school? The next district over might not tax houses as heavily. Retiring? Move from El Paso, TX, with high property and sales taxes, but no income tax, to Santa Teresa, NM, with income tax but low property tax. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/32 "2016-01-21T04:56:39Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > It seems to me that the city of Detroit is culpable in this disaster. Why would they stop selling water to Flint other than out of spite? If they had kept suppling Flint, there would have been no need to switch to drawing from the Flint River. Detroit Water would have sold Flint water till the end of time if they were guaranteed Flint would pay for it. There wasn’t any spiteful reason they stopped, they weren’t going to supply Flint water on credit and good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/33 "2016-01-21T05:21:26Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Detroit Water would have sold Flint water till the end of time if they were guaranteed Flint would pay for it. There wasn’t any spiteful reason they stopped, they weren’t going to supply Flint water on credit and good faith. According to the following article, the day after Flint agreed to join the KWA water district and part ways from Detroit, Detroit voted to suspend water sales to Flint. There is no mention of being behind on payments. Since the conversion to the KWA would take three years, Flint had to find another water source. That action put Flint in a bind, and I question whether it was legal or not considering the ramifications. It wasn’t Governor Snyder dictating that Flint turn a valve and start drawing from the Flint River save a few bucks. > **[How the Flint water crisis emerged](https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html)** > > Check out this timeline of the problems with Flint's drinking water ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/34 "2016-01-21T05:24:18Z")
Well, we know there’s no lead in Flynt’s _pencil_… Huh? Huh? What, too soon? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/35 "2016-01-21T05:43:43Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > According to the following article, the day after Flint agreed to join the KWA water district and part ways from Detroit, Detroit voted to suspend water sales to Flint. There is no mention of being behind on payments. Since the conversion to the KWA would take three years, Flint had to find another water source. That action put Flint in a bind, and I question whether it was legal or not considering the ramifications. > > It wasn’t Governor Snyder dictating that Flint turn a valve and start drawing from the Flint River save a few bucks. > > [How the Flint water crisis emerged - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#2) My earlier statement is incorrect. Detroit water gave Flint a year notice they would stop supplying. Why should Detroit Water keep maintaining infrastructure to supply Flint when they knew they were losing a customer regardless. Flint had another source of water but they botched treating that source. In the year leading up to Detroit turning them off did Flint ever claim they couldn’t survive without the Detroit Water supply? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/36 "2016-01-21T05:44:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The higher-paid workers in industrial cities like Detroit or Flint tend to locate in suburbs with expensive homes, leaving the poor to congregate in inner city areas. _ **These different areas are incorporated as distinct cities so that property and sales taxes paid by the rich are used for schools and infrastructure enjoyed by the rich, while the poor are dependent on property and sales taxes paid by the poor.** _ This becomes a vicious circle – inner-city schools (and infrastructure for water, sanitation, etc.) are under-financed, so deteriorate, so those with the financial means to move to a better suburb do so, further lessening the tax revenue of the poor areas. Detroit spends significantly [more](https://www.mackinac.org/depts/epi/fiscal.aspx) per-student than nearly all of the surrounding suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/37 "2016-01-21T06:29:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? A fair number of people have moved from the Boston area to southern NH to avoid taxes. Fidelity Investments moved an office from Boston to Manchester in part so employees would pay less taxes. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/38 "2016-01-21T12:28:29Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > A fair number of people have moved from the Boston area to southern NH to avoid taxes. Fidelity Investments moved an office from Boston to Manchester in part so employees would pay less taxes. There may be a few special cases like this where taxes would come into play. But some conservatives would have you believe that every person makes every decision based on tax avoidance, which is silly. In my opinion, white flight from big rust belt cities is based on fear of crime. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/39 "2016-01-21T13:45:12Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > A fair number of people have moved from the Boston area to southern NH to avoid taxes. Fidelity Investments moved an office from Boston to Manchester in part so employees would pay less taxes. I know people who work in that very office. One took a pay cut but came out ahead all things considered. Most people who live in NH weren’t born there. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/40 "2016-01-21T13:50:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There may be a few special cases like this where taxes would come into play. But some conservatives would have you believe that every person makes every decision based on tax avoidance, which is silly. In my opinion, white flight from big rust belt cities is based on fear of crime. LOL [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=3)