# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/41 "2016-01-21T14:22:58Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Why should Detroit Water keep maintaining infrastructure to supply Flint when they knew they were losing a customer regardless. Flint had another source of water but they botched treating that source. In the year leading up to Detroit turning them off did Flint ever claim they couldn’t survive without the Detroit Water supply? Flint had been dependent on Detroit for water for seventy years. Another two years shouldn’t have made a difference. Forcing Flint to tap into a known dubious source of water was wrong whether or not they they could treat the water satisfactorily or not. It also indicates to me that the Flint’s switch wasn’t completely based on costs but reliability of Detroit. Perhaps, they knew Detroit’s action were coming for one reason or another. The far left narrative of Governor Snyder simply dictating the switch from one source to another to save a few dollars is false. It appears to be politically motivated albeit effective. I must admit if I had not researched the subject myself I would have thought the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/42 "2016-01-21T15:15:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There may be a few special cases like this where taxes would come into play. But some conservatives would have you believe that every person makes every decision based on tax avoidance, which is silly. In my opinion, white flight from big rust belt cities is based on fear of crime. The “Curley Effect”, it is claimed at least, is about more than taxes - allegedly, it is about politicians deliberately encouraging flight by a demographic that will not vote for them (typically, a wealthier demographic), by means of both tax policy and “incendiary rhetoric”. The claim, at least, is that these politicians do what they can to make this demographic _unwelcome_, and it is the concatenation of various efforts in this regard that speeds their flight. Presumably, the Curley effect isn’t the only thing that speeds their flight. I’m curious as to whether people here think there is validity in the concept, as it pertains to the current situation: Detroit is often held up as an example. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/43 "2016-01-21T15:28:56Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Partially perhaps, but it definitely preceded him. I lived in a suburb of Detroit in the late 1970’s and it was lily-white, more or less working class to unexceptional middle class and racist as fuck ( moving there from San Francisco was a bit of a culture shock ). Already there was an attitude of “we were driven out of Detroit by the blacks” and while Coleman had been mayor for a few years at that point, it was obvious that the white flight was not just that recent. Coleman Young was as much a product of white flight as a cause. In the election of 1962, policing was a big issue. The incumbent mayor was heavily criticized for what was perceived as over zealous policing in the black communities. Jerome Cavanaugh was elected in a surprise result with strong black support. Cavanaugh was considered a rising star in the Democrat party but he presided over a surge in crime and then the 1967 riots. The lawlessness and riots caused anybody with means to leave Detroit. Before Cavanaugh, 10 of the previous 13 mayors had been Republican. Since Cavanaugh all of the mayors have been Democrats and Detroit is the most Democratic city in America. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/44 "2016-01-21T16:37:03Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Flint had been dependent on Detroit for water for seventy years. Another two years shouldn’t have made a difference. Forcing Flint to tap into a known dubious source of water was wrong whether or not they they could treat the water satisfactorily or not. It also indicates to me that the Flint’s switch wasn’t completely based on costs but reliability of Detroit. Perhaps, they knew Detroit’s action were coming for one reason or another. > > The far left narrative of Governor Snyder simply dictating the switch from one source to another to save a few dollars is false. It appears to be politically motivated albeit effective. I must admit if I had not researched the subject myself I would have thought the same thing. Ok, he personally is not on record ordering a switch be thrown. But it was under his hand-appointed leaders that the switch was administered…and botched. And it was his administration and staff that ignored the residents of Flint who, for two years, were saying the water looked, tasted and smelled bad. And it was his staff that were encouraging the cherry-picking of Flint’s water samples to keep this from showing up on anyone’s radar. He and his administration fucked up. _He knows it_– that’s why he spent a good part of his SOTS address apologizing profusely to the residents of Flint. _Republican leaders in Michigan (and nationally) know it_– that’s why they’ve been largely silent, even though a major city’s water supply was poisoned _for two years_; if it was truly the fault of Flint’s local government, there would be a lot more Republicans speaking out right now and defending the administration. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/45 "2016-01-21T18:40:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There may be a few special cases like this where taxes would come into play. But some conservatives would have you believe that every person makes every decision based on tax avoidance, which is silly. In my opinion, white flight from big rust belt cities is based on fear of crime. I think you’re reading what you want into it. There are many reasons people flee areas; taxes are a major one. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/46 "2016-01-21T18:47:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What happened then was that as soon as Flint announced plans to stop buying Detroit water and build its own system that would be ready in three years, Detroit announced it would stop selling Flint water in one year. > The Emergency manager who has then in place made the decision to go to the backup plan which was the Flint River. Or the Detroit EM, who answered only to the governor, could have been directed by the governor to keep selling Flint water until the new Flint system was in place. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/47 "2016-01-21T18:52:53Z")
One good thing about this, noted right wing pundit Bill Ballenger [was fired](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/20/bill-ballenger/79058472/) from Inside Michigan Politics for downplaying the severity of the crisis. I happened to hear him Tuesday morning on Detroit’s most influential radio station, WJR (We’re Just Rednecks) and was amazed at the ignorance and arrogance that oozed out of every word that he said. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/48 "2016-01-21T18:57:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One good thing about this, noted right wing pundit Bill Ballenger [was fired](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/20/bill-ballenger/79058472/) from Inside Michigan Politics for downplaying the severity of the crisis. I happened to hear him Tuesday morning on Detroit’s most influential radio station, WJR (We’re Just Rednecks) and was amazed at the ignorance and arrogance that oozed out of every word that he said. Takes a real dolt to get fired from the publication he founded. But he did it! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/49 "2016-01-22T00:54:15Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The governor appointed the emergency manager, because Flint is one of those cities that has a long tradition of electing worthless idiots who aren’t fit to run a front-yard lemonade stand. (Granted, they’re not in a same league as Detroit in that regard.) The governor didn’t make any decisions regarding Flint’s water, and calls for his resignation are just naked political grandstanding. > [@Diceman](#): > > The EMs tend to be unpopular, but the simple unpleasant truth is that the municipalities that get them tend to have a long history of really bad leaders who can be counted on to make bad decisions and piss away any money you give them. (See Detroit, and even moreso the Detroit Public Schools.) . . . Just . . . . . . I think it is appropriate here to quote this post from the “What’s the most undemocratic thing US politicians ever rammed down the public throat?” thread: > [@What's the most undemocratic thing US politicians ever rammed down the public throat?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-undemocratic-thing-us-politicians-ever-rammed-down-the-public-throat/742261/92): > > Michigan’s Emergency Fiscal Manager law (you know, the one that is currently being blamed for the Flint poisoned water situation) has to be up there. The law allows the governor to appoint an Emergency Fiscal Manger to take over administration of any city whose finances are deemed dire enough. Said manager can rip up union contracts, override city councils, and dictate what local government can and can’t do. So, under criteria decided by the governor, he can appoint someone answerable only to him who can override the rule of the local city government in the name of “fiscal responsibility.” > > But that’s not even the most disgusting part. The citizens of Michigan did not like this law and once it was passed, succeeded in getting enough signatures to get it on a ballot referendum, where it was voted down. The legislature then resurrected it and tacked it onto a spending bill, which is not subject to referendum. Thus the State of MI pretty much said to its citizens, “screw you…we’re going to reserve the right to override your local elected officials whether you want it or not.” I have been amazed, quite frankly, that this didn’t provoke the national uproar it deserved. After all, if this is deemed constitutional (and I don’t know if it has been), it’s a tactic that any state legislature could use. Perhaps because it was aimed mostly at Detroit, or because Rick Snyder is not as personally confrontational as, say, Scott Walker, it seems to have slid under the radar. But that doesn’t make it any less despicable. > > The current Emergency Fiscal Manager of Flint is the person who decided to save a few bucks by using water from the Flint river, rather than Detroit-treated water, with catastrophic results for the citizens of Flint. Now there are calls for the governor to resign, Flint has been declared a disaster area and the EPA is investigating. I can only hope the implosion takes the EFM law with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/50 "2016-01-22T00:59:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So what accountability did this bonehead EM get? A new gig at a higher salary as EM for Detroit Public Schools. . . . So . . . so . . . now he has authority over the school lunches?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/51 "2016-01-22T01:04:20Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is separation of the rich into suburbs and poor into inner cities is not a law of nature it is a failure of government. In many european cities, inner cities are for the rich and well connected and the poor live in the suburbs. > The problem is one party rule that values politics over good government. But, the problem you’re describing happened all over the United States after WWII, in every metropolitan area, regardless of its local politics or government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/52 "2016-01-22T01:11:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > There may be a few special cases like this where taxes would come into play. But some conservatives would have you believe that every person makes every decision based on tax avoidance, which is silly. In my opinion, white flight from big rust belt cities is based on fear of crime. > [@inscrutable](#): > > LOL :dubious: The notion that fear of crime drives white flight is laughable? ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/53 "2016-01-22T01:17:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . > > Just . . . > . . . > > I think it is appropriate here to quote this post from the “What’s the most undemocratic thing US politicians ever rammed down the public throat?” thread: Why do you keep posting statements like this? "The current Emergency Fiscal Manager of Flint is the person who decided to save a few bucks by using water from the Flint river, rather than Detroit-treated water, with catastrophic results for the citizens of Flint. " The decision to switch from Detroit water was to Lake Huron through the Karegnondi Water Authority to save money. The day after Flint agreed to join the KWA water district and part ways from Detroit, Detroit voted to suspend water sales to Flint. This forced Flint to find an alternative source which was the Flint River. No one is contends that the switch to the KWA was not prudent. If anything, Detroit is in large part responsible for this disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/54 "2016-01-22T01:45:55Z")
I can’t cite the source and have been unable to verify on google but I read somewhere that Flint was paying just over 20 percent of the bill for Detroit’s water budget but only using 10 percent of their water. Either way Detroit has been accused of gouging prices for water in the past. Last year they had trouble with residents not paying their water bills and were [threatening to shut them off](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/detroit-water-behind-crisis-2014727123440725511.html). There might even have been a pit thread about that IIRC. The new Karegnondi pipeline from Lake Huron is nearly to Genesee county(Flint) by now and it is generally regarded as a good decision locally. I keep seeing comments on how the switch was “stupid” or “criminal” and was just made to save a few dollars and those are nothing more than a simple talking points. Now we have a [regional EPA offical](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/01/epa_regional_head_resigns_amid.html#incart_river_mobile_home) resigning over this. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/55 "2016-01-22T02:08:28Z")
Now we have a [regional EPA offical](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/01/epa_regional_head_resigns_amid.html#incart_river_mobile_home) resigning over this. [/QUOTE] The head of the EPA Gina McCarthy should resign also. What did she tell Obama and when? Maybe he sat on this disaster too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/56 "2016-01-22T02:35:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? Is this a rhetorical question? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/57 "2016-01-22T02:42:38Z")
I wonder if now Michael Moore’s going to make a sequel to _Roger & Me?_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/58 "2016-01-22T03:24:17Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Now we have a [regional EPA offical](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/01/epa_regional_head_resigns_amid.html#incart_river_mobile_home) resigning over this. The head of the EPA Gina McCarthy should resign also. What did she tell Obama and when? Maybe he sat on this disaster too. [/QUOTE] Nah, he told Hillary all about it in an e-mail. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/59 "2016-01-22T04:33:31Z")
From [MLive](http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/01/michigan_truth_squad_who_appro.html): > [@](#): > > The crisis timeline distributed to reporters and now available to the public online states that in June 2013, “City of Flint decides to use the Flint River as a water source,” a phrasing similar to what the governor used in his State of the State speech, (“Flint began to use water from the Flint River as an interim source”) suggesting that the city, not the state, drove the interim decision to use the highly corrosive river water for city residents. > > Here’s the problem with that: City officials did not drive the decision to take water from the Flint River. There was never such a vote by the city council, which really didn’t have the power to make such a decision anyway, because the city was under the control of a state-appointed emergency manager. > > The council’s vote in March 2013 was to switch water supply from Detroit to a new pipeline through the Karegnondi Water Authority – but the pipeline wasn’t scheduled to be completed for at least three years. (And even that decision was given final approval not by the council, [but by then-state Treasurer Andy Dillon](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/20/snyder-flint-emails/79062418/) [another appointee of Snyder], according to Snyder emails released Wednesday.) > > Snyder said that Detroit, after being informed of the Flint council vote, sent a [“letter of termination”](http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/michigan/files/201512/dwsd_termination_ltr.pdf?_ga=1.66617326.1973691929.1443711833) of water service. Detroit sent a letter giving Flint one year on its existing contract, but that didn’t mean Flint couldn’t get water from Detroit after that date. In fact, there was a [flurry of negotiations](http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2013/04/detroit_gives_notice_its_termi.html) between Detroit and Flint to sign a new contract that would carry Flint through until it could connect to the under-construction pipeline. That new contract was going to cost Flint more money. > > This distinction is important to note because merely stating that Flint received a “letter of termination” makes it sound as if a thirsty Flint had no choice but to stick a straw in the Flint River. Flint could have elected to sign a new contract with the the Detroit water system (in fact, Flint reconnected to Detroit water after the situation in the city became a full-fledged, hair-on-fire crisis). Flint disconnected from Detroit because it was cheaper to take water from the Flint River until the new pipeline was completed. [Here’s a letter from then-emergency manager Darnell Earley](http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/michigan/files/201512/earlely_letter.pdf?_ga=1.224901786.1036207224.1446746452) saying Flint was choosing to use Flint water instead of Detroit water. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/60 "2016-01-22T04:58:15Z")
“City of Flint” or “Flint” effectively mean the governing body of Flint. In this instance, the governing body is unified in the very body of the emergency manager. So, really, all it says is that the government of Flint decided to use river water and, yes, he did. There is no lie, merely an economy of truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=4)