# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/61 "2016-01-22T04:58:57Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Now we have a [regional EPA offical](http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/01/epa_regional_head_resigns_amid.html#incart_river_mobile_home) resigning over this. And that’s great. She deserved to go, she fucked up royally in this. > [@Pearl Clutching Provocateur](#): > > The head of the EPA Gina McCarthy should resign also. What did she tell Obama and when? Maybe he sat on this disaster too. Ooh! Ooh! Heavens to Murgatroyd! Wouldn’t that be simply _wonderful_! But nope, still on Snyder. He’s the governor, he placed the city under emergency management, his appointees were making the decisions, and his team is responsible for not treating the water and then \*lying \*about it to the EPA. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/62 "2016-01-22T05:13:29Z")
Detroit was gouging Flint. From the City of Flint website: > **[CoF-Water-System-FAQ-1-16-2015.pdf](https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-content/uploads/CoF-Water-System-FAQ-1-16-2015.pdf)** > > 2.95 MB 1. What were the projected costs and benefits of the switch, and what have been the actual costs and benefits? The engineered costs for upgrading the Flint Plant to treat KWA water from Lake Huron were projected to be —$9,000,000. These upgrades need to be in place prior to KWA water reaching Flint and are coupled with an additional —$3,500,000 in annual operational expenses for workforce additions, electricity costs, and process equipment for a total of —$12,500,000. The final year that the City of Flint purchased water from DWSD, the cost was $12,400,000 and that cost was projected to rise to —$14,400,000 in 2014 and increase to —$16,000,000 in 2015. The financial benefit for switching to the river was the opportunity to divert that revenue towards capitalizing the upgrade expenditures needed to run the plant and the development of a capital improvement program for the aged infrastructure without a significant increase to the water bill. This aspect was figured into the cost analysis at the time of the recommendation. Based on the current DWSD rate structure, it appears that the actual costs to purchase water this year would have been higher than projected, The fixed cost would have been —$5,100,000 and the additional commodity or water costs would have resulted in another —$11,000,000 given the City’s current water usage. This would result in an estimated —$16,000,000 in this year alone. The upgrade expenditures stayed close to the engineered projections. The improvements at the water plant cost —$7,000,000, the remediation and development of Bray Rd for lime disposal cost —$1,700,000 and the increased operational costs so far this year are below the estimates and on target to finish the year at --$3,000,000. These changes come to a total of —$11,700,000 of necessary expenditures in the first year. In addition to the ability to capitalize the upgrades, switching to the Flint River has allowed us to develop a Capital Improvement Plan for the Utility Department that will begin replacing pipe underground this spring and will account for overdue maintenance concerns such as valve replacements, and pipe lining extending the useful life of the system and allowing us to deliver better quality water. **It would have required close to a 30% raise in the water and sewer bill to accomplish this without using the Flint River as a source.** ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/63 "2016-01-22T05:36:25Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Detroit was gouging Flint. From the City of Flint website: Oh, you mean Detroit’s Water and Sewerage Department, which was run by Snyder’s Emergency Manager, Kevin Orr? \*That \*Detroit? Imagine that. Gouging. Flint. Huh. And that price increase led them switching to the Flint River, which led to what crisis again? ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/64 "2016-01-22T16:02:13Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Oh, you mean Detroit’s Water and Sewerage Department, which was run by Snyder’s Emergency Manager, Kevin Orr? \*That \*Detroit? Imagine that. Gouging. Flint. Huh. And that price increase led them switching to the Flint River, which led to what crisis again? I need to modify my arguments somewhat because they are incorrect and also play into false narrative created by the Left. The use of the Flint River as an interim water source appears to be a reasonable course of action from everything I’ve read so far. Yes, the water from the Flint River was and is safe to drink after it has been treated. However, once it entered the pipes of Flint, the lead and other contaminants from those pipes leeched into the water supply. Different pipes would have resulted in different outcomes. This is an important distinction. I’m not saying that a serious mistake wasn’t made. In addition, the Flint River was considered a backup source of water for decades. Now I have to ask is if the engineers at the Flint Water Department or the engineers hired to make the transition foresaw this outcome and whether or not they warned officials. It seems to me that any professional in this area of water treatment and distribution would have known there could be dire consequences and to watch for them closely. In Orange County California, we drink toilet water, and we are one of wealthiest areas in the country. The Flint River has to be cleaner than our toilets. > **[California Drought: Orange County expands 'toilet to tap' water recycling](https://laist.com/news/kpcc-archive/california-drought-orange-county-taps-sewage-water)** > > Orange County was an early adopter of technology to replenish drinking water reserves with recycled wastewater — an idea gaining traction as the drought grinds on ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/65 "2016-01-22T16:28:24Z")
It was a joke I heard in Arizona a _long_ time ago. Good news, bad news. Bad news, next year we will only have toilet water to drink. Good news, there’s not enough for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/66 "2016-01-22T16:28:48Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Detroit was gouging Flint. From the City of Flint website: > \*\* So one person, who answers only to the governor, was gouging another person, who answers only to the governor. I wonder if there was somebody who could have resolved this to come to a better result? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/67 "2016-01-22T17:23:22Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > I need to modify my arguments somewhat because they are incorrect and also play into false narrative created by the Left. The use of the Flint River as an interim water source appears to be a reasonable course of action from everything I’ve read so far. Yes, the water from the Flint River was and is safe to drink after it has been treated. However, once it entered the pipes of Flint, the lead and other contaminants from those pipes leeched into the water supply. Different pipes would have resulted in different outcomes. This is an important distinction. I’m not saying that a serious mistake wasn’t made. In addition, the Flint River was considered a backup source of water for decades. > > Now I have to ask is if the engineers at the Flint Water Department or the engineers hired to make the transition foresaw this outcome and whether or not they warned officials. It seems to me that any professional in this area of water treatment and distribution would have known there could be dire consequences and to watch for them closely. > > In Orange County California, we drink toilet water, and we are one of wealthiest areas in the country. The Flint River has to be cleaner than our toilets. > > [California Drought: Orange County expands 'toilet to tap' water recycling](http://www.scpr.org/news/2014/03/06/42632/california-drought-orange-county-taps-sewage-water/) You’re comparing OC’s highly treated recycled water to the highly-corrosive-- and not properly treated-- water coming from the Flint River (which, incidentally, has historically been pretty damaged & polluted by nearby industry)? And do you really think that if your Orange County tap water came out brown and stinking like shit, it would’ve taken two years to rectify the situation? No damn way. Here’s the thing: The State of Michigan was required by federal law to add an anti-corrosive agent to the water, which would’ve cost between $100 and $200 a day. But they didn’t. From [Huffington Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-flint-water-got-poisonous_us_569907f5e4b0b4eb759e1426): > [@](#): > > The Flint River water turned out to be more corrosive than the water Flint received from Detroit – so corrosive, in fact, that in October 2014, General Motors opted to quit using it to avoid corroding parts in its engine plant. Corrosiveness is a problem because Flint, like many American cities, has water pipes that are made from lead, which can leach into the water and poison people who drink it. > > Back in 2011, Flint had commissioned an evaluation of Flint River water, the results of which indicated it would need to be treated with phosphates to reduce its corrosiveness. Two years later, [according to the Detroit Free Press](http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2015/11/07/flint-lead-water/75268692/), a Flint official forwarded that information to the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, which is responsible for ensuring that Flint follows the federal Safe Drinking Water Act. But the MDEQ didn’t do its job. > > As Miguel Del Toral, an expert with the Environmental Protection Agency who was investigating local complaints about the water, explained in a June 2015 memo: “Recent drinking water sample results indicate the presence of high lead results in the drinking water, which is to be expected in a public water system that is not providing corrosion control treatment. The lack of any mitigating treatment for lead is of serious concern for residents that live in homes with lead service lines or partial lead service lines, which are common throughout the City of Flint.” > > In October, the [MDEQ admitted](http://nbc25news.com/news/flint-water-woes/mdeq-admits-to-mistake-that-lead-to-contamination-of-flints-drinking-water) it failed to follow the correct protocol for corrosion. In December, the agency’s director and spokesman both resigned after a task force appointed by Snyder [blamed the MDEQ](http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2015/12/deq_director_dan_wyant_resigns.html) above all other agencies for failing to ensure the safety of Flint’s water. From [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health/toxic-tap-water-flint-michigan/): > [@](#): > > Nearly two years ago, the state decided to save money by switching Flint’s water supply from Lake Huron (which they were paying the city of Detroit for), to the Flint River, a notorious tributary that runs through town known to locals for its filth. > > “We thought it was a joke,” said Rhonda Kelso, a long-time Flint resident. > … > According to a class-action lawsuit, the state Department of Environmental Quality wasn’t treating the Flint River water with an anti-corrosive agent, in violation of federal law. Therefore, the water was eroding the iron water mains, turning water brown. > > But what residents couldn’t see was far worse. About half of the service lines to homes in Flint are made of lead and because the water wasn’t properly treated, lead began leaching into the water supply, in addition to the iron. > … > Later it became publicly known that federal law had not been followed. A 2011 study on the Flint River found it would have to be treated with an anti-corrosive agent for it to be considered as a safe source for drinking water. > > Adding that agent would have cost about $100 a day, and experts say 90% of the problems with Flint’s water would have been avoided. > > But Flint residents say they were kept in the dark for 18 months until a local doctor took things into her own hands. Enjoy your clean water today. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/68 "2016-01-22T18:21:20Z")
[The New York Times blasts Gov. Snyder in an editorial today:](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/22/opinion/depraved-indifference-toward-flint.html) > [@](#): > > At every juncture when state officials could have avoided or reduced the harm in Flint, they ignored public pleas and made every effort to dismiss the truth. > … > The emails are only those sent to or from the governor, not those sent between members of his administration. That is unacceptable. He needs to release every email that might shed light on how this calamity developed, and who was responsible. Even Wednesday’s limited release shows an appalling lack of urgency in responding to Flint’s water problems and a determination to blame the city for the crisis. > > For example, various emails showed that state officials dismissed one group of critics as being an “anti-everything group” and accused others of trying to turn the issue of children’s exposure to lead into a “political football.” Virtually everyone in the city knew that there were problems with the Flint River water, which smelled bad, was an odd color, caused skin rashes in some people and led to several advisories from the state to boil the water before drinking it. > > **Flint’s City Council voted 7 to 1 in March 2015 to “do all things necessary” to return to purchasing clean water from Detroit, only to have the emergency manager at the time veto the measure as “incomprehensible” because he considered the water safe and believed it was more important to save money than to respond to the pleas of Flint residents.** > > Although state officials insisted that their data showed no serious lead problems in Flint, the released emails suggest otherwise. They reveal that the state’s Department of Environmental Quality ignored warnings from an expert from the federal Environmental Protection Agency, who said in early 2015 that the state was testing the water in a way that could profoundly understate the lead levels. The bolding above is mine, because I’d like to reinforce the fact that the [Flint City Council voted to return to Detroit’s water way back in March, only to be given this statement by Snyder’s Emergency Manager, Jerry Ambrose:](http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/03/flint_emergency_manager_calls.html) > [@](#): > > Flint water today is safe by all (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency) and (Michigan Department of Environmental Quality) standards, and the city is working daily to improve its quality. Users also pay some of the highest rates in the state because of the decreased numbers of users and the age of the system. > > It is incomprehensible to me that (seven) members of the Flint City Council would want to send more than $12 million a year to the system serving Southeast Michigan, even if Flint rate payers could afford it. (Lake Huron) water from Detroit is no safer than water from Flint. Locals were begging to go back to Detroit’s water, the locally-elected leadership was begging to go back to Detroit’s water. However, the governor’s Emergency Manager put money over the safety of the residents and kept them on the Flint River water. Were it not for the state’s bullshit Emergency Manager law, the Flint residents would have been back on Detroit’s water MONTHS earlier than what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/69 "2016-01-22T18:31:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the problem you’re describing happened all over the United States after WWII, in every metropolitan area, regardless of its local politics or government. Yes, but it doesn’t seem to have been a response to crime _or_ taxes. It was a response to overcrowding in working class areas where black people were able to buy homes, primarily caused by redlining and restrictive covenants in middle class areas where they couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/70 "2016-01-22T18:49:28Z")
RE: Jerry Ambrose, City Mangler Coupla things: _numbero uno_, seems like I’ve heard for some time that Lake Huron water was quite good in terms of pollutants, etc. I’m wrong or he’s wrong? If its me, well, no big deal, the number of people who depend on my decisions is pretty small. Him, People’s Commissar for Everything… _Numero two-o_, just because I’m on the conservative wing of the extreme left doesn’t mean I won’t acknowledge some compassionate conservatism in action. I’ll even leave off the snark-quote marks. The people of Flint should not become accustomed to a level of water quality that they cannot sustain, it would be cruel. They simply can’t afford it and coddling them will only make the transition worse. Like Mithridates of old, who took little doses of poison long enough to become accustomed to them, and thus thwarted political change by chemical action. As the poet said “Mithridates, he died old”. Sick every day of his life, of course, but he got _old_! ---
**Author:** ![Corporal\_Clegg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Corporal\_Clegg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corporal_Clegg)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/71 "2016-01-22T19:15:13Z")
> [@justmeetee](#): > > I’m trying to understand this mess and keep hearing the city changed where the water came from to save money. But now the governor is being blamed for the lead poisoning of the children. Shouldn’t the blame be on the city government that made the switch? I hear Hillary Clinton playing the race card. Is the city government African American? Is race the reason for this or just a convenient target? I’d like to believe it isn’t. Hi justmeetee, The city governmnent which was elected by the people was replaced in an undemocratic move where he fired the elected officials and installed so-called “emergency managers” who reported to him and him only. This was done supposedly because Flint had gone bankrupt. But Flint’s economic woes were much longer in the making than the tenure of any elected officals office. The installed emergency managers made the decision to draw water from the polluted Flint river instead of getting it from Detroit-processed Lake Huron water which had been fine for drinking and cooking. The untreated water from the Flint river corroded the pipes where lead had long been used at connections without incident. When scientists and doctors brought the alarm of lead contamination to the attention of the managers, they chose to defend their own decisions rather than alarm the Governor. Eventually, the Governor became aware but did little–probably also feeling defensive that his “samll governmnent conservatism” was failing a critical test that was putting children and others at peril. Without steady media coverage by Rachel Maddow of MSNBC this story may have just gone on to much worse effect. But her dogged determination to get something done about it finally resulted in the main stream media picking up the story. It IS a politically significant matter as it is an indictment of “conservatism” itself as a governing logic. No one ever argues for “big” or “bigger” government just for its own sake. They would be laughed out of town for doing that. So, it’s perfectly valid to argue that the ideology of shrinking governmnent for its own sake without thought of potential consequences is just as ludicrous as making governmnent bigger just for the sake of making it bigger. So, in this case, when 10 people died of legionaires dsease and 80 others stricken with it, proof has never been more tangible that the underlying assertions of political conservatism are dangerous nonsense. This is why the democrats are calling a spade a spade. It is entirely on the governor and his party ideology that the people of Flint have been poisoned and their property values shot down because the city’s water infrastructure has to be replaced at a cost far far beyond the red that the city was inititially in. You can’t undo the brain damage or bring back the dead. And the “pipe job” is estimated to cost well over $700million. If you want to understand the difference between conservative and liberal politics, here is a good case to learn from. IMO conservatives are reckless and tend to cover-up when their recklessness bears out. Liberals tend to error on the side of investment not to have something like this happen. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/72 "2016-01-22T21:40:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but it doesn’t seem to have been a response to crime _or_ taxes. It was a response to overcrowding in working class areas where black people were able to buy homes, primarily caused by redlining and restrictive covenants in middle class areas where they couldn’t. Well, I’ve seen clips from postwar ads touting the new suburban developments as a place to get away from “the crowding **and crime** of the city.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/73 "2016-01-22T23:48:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So one person, who answers only to the governor, was gouging another person, who answers only to the governor. I wonder if there was somebody who could have resolved this to come to a better result? The EPA was aware that the water was bad. I’ve wrongly assumed that the EPA would have made a public announcement when they discovered that people were being poisoned. Ya know, for the children. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/74 "2016-01-23T00:25:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The EPA was aware that the water was bad. I’ve wrongly assumed that the EPA would have made a public announcement when they discovered that people were being poisoned. Ya know, for the children. Based on the information so far the EPA didn’t know the water was bad. They’d expressed concerns the water may be bad and that they didn’t think the test results Michigan was showing them were an accurate representation. The EPA provides oversight for testing and standards. The state is responsible for doing the testing and making announcements. It would be out of place for the EPA to make a public announcement in this case, that was Michigan’s job. The EPA clearly screwed the poach here, they didn’t investigate when they suspected wrong doing. They knew Flint wasn’t treating the water, they knew what the results of untreated water could lead to, yet they didn’t do their own testing. They relied on Michigan’s cherry picked samples and sat on their asses. Heads should roll at the EPA, but based on the information so far it looks like they can hide behind bureaucratic ignorance. Michigan on the other hand, officials were actively hiding data from the EPA. [QUOTE=New Republic] Del Toral raised two main concerns: The water wasn’t being treated properly and the testing showing the water was safe was inaccurate. “I’m worried that the whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance results indicated,” Del Toral warned in an April memo to DEQ, which was summarized in the email batch released Wednesday. According to a memo from June that was later leaked, Del Toral was concerned that Flint did not use the same chemical treatments for lead and copper after it made the switch in 2014, and that corroded plumbing was likely leaching lead: “In the absence of any corrosion control treatment, lead levels in drinking water can be expected to increase.” Compounding the problem, Michigan instructed residents to “pre-flush” their taps before sampling, leading to depressed reporting of lead levels [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/75 "2016-01-23T00:48:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: The notion that fear of crime drives white flight is laughable? It does seem a bit counterintuitive to suppose that ONLY whites fear crime enough to want to move away from it (I recognize that the preceding is somewhat simplistic, and that having the means to move is also a factor). I always had the impression that “white flight” was largely about a bigoted desire of many whites to not live among black folks; and that desire _in and of itself_ was a significant motivator. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/76 "2016-01-25T00:14:57Z")
[Here’s a new take on the Flint water tragedy.](http://www.occupydemocrats.com/newly-leaked-emails-indicate-michigan-republicans-didnt-poison-water-to-save-money-2/) > [@](#): > > the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) offered Snyder a deal … which would have been 20% cheaper than switching to the polluted Karegnondi Water Authority. > > MCM also reports that “A high-ranking DWSD official told us today that Detroit offered a 50% reduction over what Flint had been paying Detroit. In fact, documents show that DWSD made at least six proposals to Flint, saying “the KWA pipeline can only be attributed to a ‘political’ objective that has nothing to do with the delivery – or the price – of water.” The deal was signed in 2013, and Governor Snyder refuses to release the emails from this period – refusing to offer up the paper trail of how, exactly this decision was made. > > … the ultimate goal was to break up and privatize the DWSD by starving it of a crucial customer base… depriving it of the Flint contract would give the Snyder administration an excuse to sell it off… > > It just goes to show how dangerous the Republican Party’s crusade to dismantle all public institutions and replace them with privatized alternatives that put profits over the well-being of their customers truly presents to our nation. Governor Snyder, who was propelled into office with over $12 million in corporate campaign cash, has spent his entire governorship implementing all the trademark pieces of the Koch Brothers’ plan for America – an Americans For Prosperity-spearheaded union killing right-to-work law (even though he promised he wouldn’t during the election); the appointment of rule-by-decree”emergency managers” for major cities; slashing corporate taxes and instituting a budget-crippling flat tax; crippling public schools with budget cuts and replacing them with charter schools. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/77 "2016-01-25T00:54:25Z")
Gonna keep one toe out of the water as they say they haven’t got the actual, total, nail-their-ass-to-wall evidence even as they kinda hint it might be hidden in that pile of e-mails that aren’t being released. Still, good time to sharpen and oil up my pitchfork. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/78 "2016-01-25T01:05:44Z")
If only they had had their own email server 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/79 "2016-01-25T01:08:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Here’s a new take on the Flint water tragedy.](http://www.occupydemocrats.com/newly-leaked-emails-indicate-michigan-republicans-didnt-poison-water-to-save-money-2/) OccupyDemocrats is not valid source for anything. I guess they figured no one checks the facts. “The Detroit Water and Sewerage Department (DWSD) offered Snyder a deal … which would have been 20% cheaper than switching to the **polluted Karegnondi Water Authority.”** Both Detroit and Karegnondi Water Authority get their water from Lake Huron. Look it up. Detroit also gets it from the Detroit River, but Lake Huron is one of their major sources. Also I quoted from the City of Flint website that said that Detroit was raising the price of providing water to Flint significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/80 "2016-01-25T01:22:35Z")
[Motor City Muckraker is fairly legit](http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/01/23/gov-snyder-lied-flint-water-switch-was-not-about-money-records-show/) (while not mainstream or corporate-backed media), and that’s the source for this latest info. They have an actual email from someone at the DWSD showing that a good offer was rejected. Also, Snyder has suspiciously refused to release his emails from 2013. I think you’re convinced this is nothing but government incompetence, and refuse to see any evidence that it could be something else more serious than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=5)