# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/101 "2016-01-26T15:02:46Z")
Its all the EPAs fault, and Democrats record of reducing its powers and effectiveness! You get a watchdog, but kick out its teeth and break one of its legs, then bitch because its ineffective at scaring the burglar. Republicans created the EPA, and ever since then, Democrats have labored mightily to weaken and hamper it. Now their Frankenchicken has come to roost, and is laying poisonous eggs! OK, that last part needs work… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/102 "2016-01-26T15:55:19Z")
[The truth about Flint: Kids drank poisoned water because of the GOP’s radical, anti-democratic “reforms”](http://www.salon.com/2016/01/23/the_truth_about_flint_kids_drank_poisoned_water_because_of_the_gops_radical_anti_democratic_reforms/) > [@](#): > > The common theme of attacks on democracy in Wisconsin and Michigan is not an accident. The two stories are connected by virtue of being parts of a broader process—the aforementioned Dixiefication of the Midwest, without which neither of them can be fully understood, or responded to. Dixiefication is a process that’s economically regressive, culturally anti-modernist, and politically authoritarian/anti-democratic, and in that first story, I traced how Walker’s early aggressive pushing of Dixiefied anti-union agenda eventually led to a wide-ranging dismantling of the state’s good government framework of laws and regulations. > > \ > > **Michigan’s Racist Emergency Manager Law** > > This shocking attack on the health and welfare of young children is only the most outrageous example of how Michigan’s “emergency manager” law has robbed more than half of Michigan’s blacks of the protections of democratic self-government, putting their lives in the hands of local dictators unilaterally appointed by Gov. Rick Snyder. “While the cities under emergency management together contain just nine percent of Michigan’s population, they contain, notably, about half of the state’s African-American residents,” the Atlantic reported in May 2013. Looked at another way, while Michigan’s population is 14.2 percent black, Flint is 56.6 percent black, Detroit 82.7 percent, Benton Harbor 89.2 percent, Highland Part 93.5 percent, Pontiac 52.1 percent (Hispanic 16.5 percent), and Ecorse 46.4 percent (Hispanic 13.4 percent). Crushing black political power goes to the heart of what Dixiefication is all about. > > Rachel Maddow first reported about the emergency manager law in April 2011, shortly after its passage, when it was first applied full-force in Benton Harbor (video/transcript); the next day she described the story of what happened there as “the single-most telling thing in American politics right now about the difference between the two parties.” Michigan had had an emergency manager law before, as have other states, but the powers of emergency managers were limited, their purpose to restore a city’s finances to fiscal health in cases of extreme emergency.“The original Public Act 72, which had bipartisan support, was much more about creating a process to intervene when there was criminal or corrupt activity,” Flint’s previous mayor, Dayne Walling, told Eclectablog, Michigan’s leading progressive blog. “But, when you broaden it to say we’re going to use emergency managers’ tools and rhetoric to try to address long-term, structural financial problems, it doesn’t work.” he said. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/103 "2016-01-26T16:07:15Z")
One of the things that the Snyder thugs did in Benton Harbor was steal a city park on prime Lake Michigan frontage and convert it into a golf course for the rich and famous. I dream of the day when Snyder wears an orange jumpsuit and shares a cell with Christie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/104 "2016-01-26T16:27:49Z")
I would be on board with being a prison pen-pal, help him keep his spirits up for macrame class at Club Fed. Dear Gov: Neener neener! Yer pal, **’luc** ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/105 "2016-01-26T16:37:10Z")
Not to hijack this too much, but adding on to BrainGlutton’s post on Michigan’s anti-democratic reforms: The Republican legislature and governor took another shot at democracy in Michigan this month when they passed election “reform” which will: -Forbid local governments from distributing information about ballot initiatives (including tax matters) for 60 days prior to an election. This prohibits libraries and school districts from giving public basic, factual information to the public. -Double the amount PACs can give to candidates for the second time in two years -Forbid companies from deducting PAC money from workers’ paychecks on behalf of their union, even if the company agrees to do it. Specifically targets unions, no one else. -Eliminate straight-ticket voting, without expanding absentee voting. Michigan has some of the most restrictive absentee voting requirements, and straight-ticket voting helped alleviate line-ups in the state’s most populated precincts. Now that’s gone. -Move the campaign finance reporting deadline, so campaigns can keep secret who donates until after the election. These bills were passed on the final day of the 2015 session, most of the stuff was added as amendments, bringing the original 12-page bill up to more than 50 pages. There were no hearings or committee meetings or opportunities for legislators to read the amendments. The GOP leadership assured their caucus the bills were fine. Democrats objected,[Republican leadership voted to remove Democratic staff from the floor and lock the chamber doors until the legislation was passed.](http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2015/12/19/michigan-gop-firewall/77547490/) Once the bills hit the governor’s desk, and lawmakers actually read the legislation, [even some Republicans were calling on the governor to veto](http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2016/01/07/campaign-finance-surprise/78361616/). Librarians, mayors, school boards, city and count clerks-- everyone wanted this nonsense vetoed. But Snyder signed it. A craven attempt at tilting elections for Republicans, nothing more. This law does nothing to expand democracy, make voting easier, level the playing field, or save the state any money. They know that their actual governance won’t win them any votes, so they must continue to rig elections. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/106 "2016-01-26T18:32:07Z")
By way of our good friends at _Crooks and Liars_… **Snyder Blames Public Employees For Flint Water Crisis** > **[Snyder Blames Public Employees For Flint Water Crisis](https://crooksandliars.com/2016/01/fox-news-gives-rick-snyder-platform-blame)** > > The arrogance almost oozes off the screen. Go look, otherwise, you’re gonna think I’m making it up. Wouldn’t blame you. Union pension funds poisoned the kids. \*\*Govt failure, brought on by public employee pensions, poisoned Flint water. Stop blaming everyone else \*\* [The Government Poisoned Flint's Water—So Stop Blaming Everyone Else](https://reason.com/blog/2016/01/21/the-government-poisoned-flints-waterso-s) … h/t @reason As always, the dilemma: laugh or scream? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/107 "2016-01-26T18:40:59Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Democrats objected,[Republican leadership voted to remove Democratic staff from the floor and lock the chamber doors until the legislation was passed.](http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/brian-dickerson/2015/12/19/michigan-gop-firewall/77547490/) . . . They can **do** that?! ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/108 "2016-01-26T19:16:22Z")
Oh look. A thread where the liberals blame the Republicans and the conservatives blame the Democrats. Another game of pass the buck. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/109 "2016-01-26T19:31:51Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Oh look. A thread where the liberals blame the Republicans and the conservatives blame the Democrats. Another game of pass the buck. But only one side has the facts on its side, thus the false equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/110 "2016-01-26T19:41:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Appealing to the free market is silly. It has a lousy track record when it comes to self-regulation, only doing a decent job when it is afraid the government will step in. Well we have a track record of government provided water in Flint and is currently killing people. So saying the government will fix everything when we have concrete evidence of their failure is even sillier. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/111 "2016-01-26T19:43:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But only one side has the facts on its side, thus the false equivalence. I’ve never heard that rationale before. It’s always right, too. Republicans and Democrats are involved in this mess. Trying to blame it all on one or the other just makes it harder to resolve. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/112 "2016-01-26T19:45:48Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > -Forbid local governments from distributing information about ballot initiatives (including tax matters) for 60 days prior to an election. This prohibits libraries and school districts from giving public basic, factual information to the public. Could I get a cite on this specific claim? Preferably to the section of the bill itself that does this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/113 "2016-01-26T20:08:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could I get a cite on this specific claim? Preferably to the section of the bill itself that does this. > > Regards, > Shodan As I understand it, the measure is intended to stop lobbying efforts that are conducted under the auspices of “distributing information.” And I personally think banning straight-party voting is a good thing. It won’t kill you to spend an extra minute actually looking at the names on the ballot and attempting to run a congnitive function or two. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/114 "2016-01-26T21:13:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’ve never heard that rationale before. It’s always right, too. > > Republicans and Democrats are involved in this mess. Trying to blame it all on one or the other just makes it harder to resolve. As a complete outsider who is not American and not invested in its party politics, I tend to agree. The sad part of this saga is that both parties have been incompetent managers, and each points to the incompetent management of the other to boost its own position. Flint, as I understand it, is like Detroit, but without notable characters like Kwame Kilpatrick - stuck in a downward spiral of ever-higher taxes and an ever-shrinking population - which eventually put the city into receivership, after a vote to recall the incumbent mayor (with much finger-pointing between the mayor and council). This enabled the Republican Governor to appoint a Manager … ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/115 "2016-01-26T21:30:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But only one side has the facts on its side, thus the false equivalence. It’s convenient when history starts with the poisoned water and not the failures of the local governments that turned Flint and Detroit into such messes. It’s like blaming Bush for New Orleans’s failure to govern responsibly during Katrina. People claim to want self government at the local and state level. However it seems to be a means to fleece the general public and not to govern. And of course it’s only republicans who governed Detroit, Flint, and other municipalities into the dirt. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/116 "2016-01-26T21:34:24Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > So unlike you athoritive statement there is a supposedly about it. They were not technically bankrupt. In bad economic shspe sure. > > Do you consider the US to be bankrupt? We sell are selling bonds to pay our bills. The US controls the currency it borrows. What other entity has that deal? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/117 "2016-01-26T21:39:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The US controls the currency it borrows. What other entity has that deal? Like, every national government in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/118 "2016-01-26T21:44:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could I get a cite on this specific claim? Preferably to the section of the bill itself that does this. > > Regards, > Shodan [From Michigan PA 269 of 2015](http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/billanalysis/Senate/htm/2015-SFA-0571-N.htm): > [@](#): > > Local Ballot Question: Limit on Communication > > Section 57 of the Act prohibits a public body or a person acting for a public body from using or authorizing the use of funds, personnel, office space, computer hardware or software, property, postage, vehicles, equipment, supplies, or other public resources to make a contribution or expenditure or provide volunteer personal services, subject to a number of exceptions. One of the exceptions is the production or dissemination of factual information concerning issues relevant to the function of the public body. Under the bill, this exception is subject to the following provision. > > Except for an election official in the performance of his or her duties under the Michigan Election Law, the bill prohibits a public body, or a person acting for a public body, during the period 60 days before an election in which a local ballot question appears on a ballot, from using public funds or resources for a communication by means of radio, television, mass mailing, or prerecorded telephone message if that communication refers to a local ballot question and is targeted to the relevant electorate where the local ballot question appears on the ballot. > > (A person who knowingly violates Section 57 is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a maximum fine of $1,000 or imprisonment for up to one year, or both, if the violator is an individual. If the violator is not an individual, the penalty is a maximum fine of $20,000 or a fine equal to the amount of the improper contribution or expenditure, whichever is greater.) > > The bill defines “local ballot question” as a ballot question of a local unit of government to be voted upon in that local unit. Once it hit the governor’s desk, he said it was a very flawed bill, but he was gonna sign it anyway, and hoped the legislature would fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/119 "2016-01-26T21:58:08Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Oh look. A thread where the liberals blame the Republicans and the conservatives blame the Democrats. Another game of pass the buck. Thinking both sides are equal is intellectually lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/120 "2016-01-26T22:10:13Z")
No, thinking the other guys are always the culprit is intellectually lazy. Can’t be us! The local politicians are Democrats (and have been for a long time). The state politicians are Republicans. The Federal politicians (i.e. EPA) are Democrats. They all have their thumbs in the pie. Too much effort is being wasted in blaming the other party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=7)