# Lead in Flint's water. Who decided to change supply? Why is governor under fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637 "2016-01-19T23:53:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/161 "2016-01-28T18:01:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I read the whole thing. In what way would a public library be targeting a specific electorate? > > … > > I assume you don’t think that some librarian would be arrested for having a stack of flyers with the text of some local referendum. > > Regards, > Shodan Many libraries have newsletters, for example. As do cities, schools and counties. This would likely forbid them from putting anything about an upcoming millage in there. For some cities, their libraries are entirely funded by a special millage. This could be highly detrimental to them. And as far as what I assume, it’s irrelevant. Libraries, cities, schools and counties themselves all assume that could happen. [Even the Republican-led ones.](http://www.hollandsentinel.com/article/20160115/NEWS/160119378) > [@](#): > > I agree that it is pretty badly worded, but it appears to be an effort to stop local government from lobbying against the kinds of cuts the emergency manager wanted to implement. Huh? It has nothing to do with Emergency Managers and their cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/162 "2016-01-28T18:20:48Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Many libraries have newsletters, for example. As do cities, schools and counties. This would likely forbid them from putting anything about an upcoming millage in there. For some cities, their libraries are entirely funded by a special millage. This could be highly detrimental to them. I am sure it could be detrimental, but ISTM the idea of the law is to keep them from advocating against reducing their millage. Is the idea that someone comes into the library, asks the librarian “When is the ballot going to be held?” and the librarian says “April 14”, the librarian will be arrested? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/163 "2016-01-28T18:33:28Z")
Simply because you can cook up an absurd scenario doesn’t make the issue absurd, it merely proves that you are very imaginative. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/164 "2016-01-28T19:01:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am sure it could be detrimental, but ISTM the idea of the law is to keep them from advocating against reducing their millage. > > Is the idea that someone comes into the library, asks the librarian “When is the ballot going to be held?” and the librarian says “April 14”, the librarian will be arrested? > > Regards, > Shodan Since there were no public hearings, or input from the public or local officials, no one knows what the hell it really means. Why else do you think, for instance, Ottawa County officials have placed a gag order on all of their employees. It’s a bullshit power grab and scare tactic by right-wing anti-taxers. God forbid Ottawa County employees let the public know about an upcoming community mental health millage. [Or Dowagiac officials inform their residents about an upcoming vote to amend their city’s charter.](http://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/dowagiac-joins-suit-against-gag-law/article_30a71592-bd38-55ad-b669-ee7fdb8f400b.html) The state’s election law _already forbade public funds (including salaries, printings, mailings, etc) to be used for advocating for or against ballot questions_. If that was already in place-- and of the thousands of governmental bodies in Michigan, in the past three years, there were only five instances where this law was broken-- why the bloody hell did this law need fixin’? Short answer: it didn’t. It’s a bullshit power grab and scare tactic by right-wing anti-taxers. This new law takes the old law a step further and forbids any public entity or its employees from communicating at all on ballot questions to their electorate, with ridiculous penalties attached, and it was passed in the dark of night (literally) with no public debate or explanation. If local governments advocating for tax increases were really a problem, why was this shoved down our throats so quickly that the legislators voting on it didn’t even have time to read it? But hey! Now that any meaningful PACs (read: union) that might advocate for the passage of millages and bonds are hamstrung, and any governmental agencies that might provide the public with factual information on millages and bonds and charter amendments are effectively gagged, now the newly-empowered dark money donors and their PACs can REALLY tell the voters what to believe! Yay for our Republican overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/165 "2016-01-28T19:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > This new law takes the old law a step further and forbids any public entity or its employees from communicating at all on ballot questions to their electorate… Not AFAICT. Unless you think my scenario where a librarian communicates at all on a ballot question and gets arrested is realistic. And your cite is not very persuasive - > [@](#): > > Lyons said a committee is being formed with non-city employees to promote the ballot proposal. Lyons is the mayor. He wants to lobby to promote a ballot initiative. This is quite far from simply forbidding the dissemination of information. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/166 "2016-01-28T19:29:25Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Since there were no public hearings, or input from the public or local officials, no one knows what the hell it really means. Why else do you think, for instance, Ottawa County officials have placed a gag order on all of their employees. > > It’s a bullshit power grab and scare tactic by right-wing anti-taxers. God forbid Ottawa County employees let the public know about an upcoming community mental health millage. [Or Dowagiac officials inform their residents about an upcoming vote to amend their city’s charter.](http://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/local/dowagiac-joins-suit-against-gag-law/article_30a71592-bd38-55ad-b669-ee7fdb8f400b.html) > > The state’s election law _already forbade public funds (including salaries, printings, mailings, etc) to be used for advocating for or against ballot questions_. If that was already in place-- and of the thousands of governmental bodies in Michigan, in the past three years, there were only five instances where this law was broken-- why the bloody hell did this law need fixin’? Short answer: it didn’t. It’s a bullshit power grab and scare tactic by right-wing anti-taxers. > > This new law takes the old law a step further and forbids any public entity or its employees from communicating at all on ballot questions to their electorate, with ridiculous penalties attached, and it was passed in the dark of night (literally) with no public debate or explanation. If local governments advocating for tax increases were really a problem, why was this shoved down our throats so quickly that the legislators voting on it didn’t even have time to read it? > > But hey! Now that any meaningful PACs (read: union) that might advocate for the passage of millages and bonds are hamstrung, and any governmental agencies that might provide the public with factual information on millages and bonds and charter amendments are effectively gagged, now the newly-empowered dark money donors and their PACs can REALLY tell the voters what to believe! Yay for our Republican overlords. Wait, 5 times a law was broken in three years? Who went to jail for abusing the public funds? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/167 "2016-01-28T19:34:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not AFAICT. Unless you think my scenario where a librarian communicates at all on a ballot question and gets arrested is realistic. The example you gave (simply giving a date) is not realistic and you know it. But this isn’t just about giving a date to a patron, and you know it. > [@](#): > > And your cite is not very persuasive - > Lyons is the mayor. He wants to lobby to promote a ballot initiative. This is quite far from simply forbidding the dissemination of information. > > Regards, > Shodan He could’ve done that without this law in place, totally irrelevant to the law. But now the \*city’s \*hands are tied even more than they were before. Just forget the content of the law for a minute (as likely unconstitutional as it may be): You actually think the ends justifies the means here? Is this what conservatives have come to? Defending undemocratic bullshit just because it was perpetrated by their own kind? And is this what conservative lawmakers have come to? Sneaking legislation through without public hearings because they know it’s bullshit and won’t pass public approval? The EM law was bullshit legislation when Republican lawmakers passed it in 2012, and this bullshit is just more legislation meant inflict right-wing nonsense on this state despite a majority of Michiganders voting for Democratic candidates in state legislative races. Conservatives in Michigan know they don’t have the ability to take control of Lansing, pass laws, and inflict conservative ideology on the residents through honest governance, so they’ve continually resorted to skullduggery. I could give you more examples, but I don’t want to hijack this thread further. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/168 "2016-01-28T20:46:56Z")
Well, the important thing to remember is that both sides do it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/169 "2016-01-28T21:14:20Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > The example you gave (simply giving a date) is not realistic and you know it. But this isn’t just about giving a date to a patron, and you know it. Why is that not realistic? You said the law prevented libraries from giving any information about a ballot measure. The date of a ballot is information. Therefore it must be the case that the example is realistic, or else the law does not prevent giving out any information about a ballot. > [@](#): > > He could’ve done that without this law in place, totally irrelevant to the law. But now the \*city’s \*hands are tied even more than they were before. I don’t understand you. AFAICT the law is there to prevent public officials from lobbying for or against ballot measures using city resources. That doesn’t seem out of line to me - why should a city official use public resources to campaign for things? On his own time, or using campaign donations, sure. > [@](#): > > The EM law was bullshit legislation when Republican lawmakers passed it in 2012… I thought Flint Michigan had had its first emergency manager back in 2003, and had six or eight since then. > [@](#): > > … and this bullshit is just more legislation meant inflict right-wing nonsense on this state despite a majority of Michiganders voting for Democratic candidates in state legislative races. Did a majority of Michiganders vote for a Democrat for governor? If not, what relevance does that have? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/170 "2016-01-28T21:18:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s nonsense. > > Of course (some) institutions exist to solve problems. The USDA gets you meat without parasites in it. The very idea that you assert otherwise is pretty goofy, and it’s the exact kind of GOP article of faith that made Snyder so inept. I’m not anti government. I’m anti placing too much power in the hands of the government without real oversight and real penalties for corruption and failure. Look at the BLM movement. That wouldn’t be necessary if society took the concept of oversight of the government properly. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/171 "2016-01-28T21:21:14Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > I think the Left/ Progressives/ Democrats don’t understand what having an Emergency Manager means. It allows the city to renege on contracts and obligations that the city made, good or bad, and allows the city breathing room to get back on a financially stable position. It gives the city negotiating power with its creditors. I say give Occupy/Uncut Democrats what they want. Get rid of the Emergency Managers and make Detroit/ Flint/ Etc. honor every contract they signed no matter how burdensome or unfair. If the taxpayers see massive increases in taxes, so be it. That’s what they wanted. From a moral point of view that’s what should have been done. Municipalities and states shouldn’t be allowed to fleece the general tax paying citizen or business to enrich themselves and cronies without harsh consequences. The city of Flint, Detroit, etc are not the US Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/172 "2016-01-28T21:22:31Z")
[The state was giving state employees bottled water as far back as January of 2015 but they still claim they didn’t know about the pollution back then.](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2016/01/28/3743987/flint-water-state-employees/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/173 "2016-01-28T21:49:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mexicans are full of rapists and drug dealers . . . :eek: Man, that’s a lot to fit into a condom up your colon! ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/174 "2016-01-28T22:24:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why is that not realistic? You said the law prevented libraries from giving any information about a ballot measure. The date of a ballot is information. Therefore it must be the case that the example is realistic, or else the law does not prevent giving out any information about a ballot. > I don’t understand you. AFAICT the law is there to prevent public officials from lobbying for or against ballot measures using city resources. That doesn’t seem out of line to me - why should a city official use public resources to campaign for things? On his own time, or using campaign donations, sure. A law was already there to prevent public resources from being used to campaign for things. This new law now goes well beyond that, and you know this. > [@](#): > > Did a majority of Michiganders vote for a Democrat for governor? If not, what relevance does that have? Yes they did, that’s democracy. Republicans receiving 70,000 less votes in state house races but controlling the house 63-47 is bullshit. Republicans receiving 40,000 more votes (1.4%) statewide in senate races, yet boosting themselves to a 27-11 (71%) supermajority is bullshit. Passing legislation they know people don’t want, but attaching an expenditure making it referendum-proof, is bullshit. Voting to remove all staffers except for the majority leader’s from the senate floor before a 52-page bill is introduced and voted on is bullshit. Voting to keep the legislators in the chamber under threat of arrest until they pass a bill is bullshit. But this is what happens in a state that is controlled by inexperienced right-wing politicians in ridiculously gerrymandered districts and a governor who doesn’t appear to answer to anyone but his billionaire Amway donors. They know if they had to get elected and govern honestly, they’d never get anywhere. Nobody would have it. Therefore, skullduggery. I’m done hijacking this thread with election reform, and I apologize for bringing it up. If you want to defend the bullshit emanating from Lansing in the name of “election reform,” it should be done in a new thread. > [@](#): > > I thought Flint Michigan had had its first emergency manager back in 2003, and had six or eight since then. The Republicans’ bullshit EM law has been [covered in this thread already](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19052542&postcount=141), I’m not going to go over it again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/175 "2016-01-29T00:14:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :eek: Man, that’s a lot to fit into a condom up your colon! Mine, yeah, you’re so stretched out, you could smuggle a car. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/176 "2016-01-29T06:45:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, the important thing to remember is that both sides do it. But that’s boring; it’s much more fun to blame the other side and come up with snarky quotes. Nothing makes me feel better than pointing out how dumb my opponents are. I hear that Republicans cause autism. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/177 "2016-01-29T08:14:01Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > But that’s boring; it’s much more fun to blame the other side and come up with snarky quotes. Nothing makes me feel better than pointing out how dumb my opponents are. I hear that Republicans cause autism. Well, they do cause brain damage due to lead. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/178 "2016-02-03T22:01:56Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The EMs tend to be unpopular, but the simple unpleasant truth is that the municipalities that get them tend to have a long history of really bad leaders who can be counted on to make bad decisions and piss away any money you give them. (See Detroit, and even moreso the Detroit Public Schools.) So this is nobody’s fault? just an unfortunate incident? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/179 "2016-02-03T22:25:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is separation of the rich into suburbs and poor into inner cities is not a law of nature it is a failure of government. In many european cities, inner cities are for the rich and well connected and the poor live in the suburbs. > The problem is one party rule that values politics over good government. In both Detroit and Flint government did an awful job providing police services and containing crime. They both became crime ridden. They also had high taxes to support large city governments which helped politicians in two ways. One is the Curley effect, which was people who were opposed to high taxes and were more likely to vote Republican moved to a different polity, allowing easier reelections for Democrat politicians. Second, it created a large voting bloc of city employees who were dependent on the politicians for their jobs and would reliably vote for reelection. These powerful groups of city workers would negotiate great benefits for themselves. Currently, Flint devotes one third of its budget to paying retired city employees. > The tax base has moved to the suburbs to escape the awful governance of the cities, and the auto factories have moved to places with less unionized labor. This leaves the city unable to raise enough money and the pensions make it impossible to cut the city budget. Thus Detroit does not have enough money to provide water to Flint without huge rate hikes and Flint does not have enough money to pay the huge rate hikes. > This is a crisis 50 years in the making and is a harbinger for governments everywhere. Pension obligations will leave many governments unable to pay for the infrastructure they need without raising taxes so high they drive people away. A couple of things. The phenomenon you are talking about (wealthy city centers and working class suburbs exist in places with highly unionized labor. The urban decay in the rust belt is not entirely the fault of labor so much as it is the fault of the decline of the US auto manufacturing industry. There really wasn’t much you could have done to save Pittsburgh and Detroit. The European cities you talk about have large socialist governments with well paid municipal workers. and if you think OUR pension obligations are large you should get a load of what places like paris have to deal with. One difference is that these European countries are willing to have higher tax rates. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637/180 "2016-02-04T15:05:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh Christ, how many people do you know who moved out of a city due to tax policy? I know plenty of people for whom it is a significant factor. People from NYC who move to Connecticut for example. Sure its a tradeoff but the decision to leave NYC is driven at least in part by tax concerns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lead-in-flints-water-who-decided-to-change-supply-why-is-governor-under-fire/743637.md?page=10)