# Leader of the Free World **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090 "2004-11-22T10:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Llama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@The\_Llama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Llama)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/41 "2004-11-23T04:30:32Z")
I guess, but I’d still say that a ban on same sex marriage is still better than, say, the rights denied to women in some middle eastern countries. You know, like the right to trial in a rape case. I totally agree that bans on marriage are terrible, but the ruler I was looking for is are we _truly_ so much worse off than everyone else now, or are we still doing pretty well, and when all things are totaled could we still be doing better. I can accept either answer without argument, I would just like facts is all. The only reason I even bring it up is that we seem to focus a lot on the things in this country that are denied to us, and are allowed elsewhere, and then say “they are more free.” But then if you do a rigorous comparison, it turns out that that’s the only thing they have on us. The fact that I can’t come up with a single example off of the top of my head might be an indication of the answers I will get, but still I’d just like some facts, if they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/42 "2004-11-23T04:45:30Z")
Aside from no gay marriage, I look down across the border and see: Civil rights: a grossly disproportionally high incarceration rate particularly with regard to a specific minority Personal rights: a death penalty Public safety: a grossly disportionate murder rate. Health: a shorter lifespan. Government: head of state and administration not responsible (please learn what the technical term “responsible government” means before commenting on this). Education: avoidance of evolution Religion: increasingly diminished separation of church and state Environment: will not sign on to Koyoto And the list goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/43 "2004-11-23T05:03:36Z")
And most importantly with respect to the issue of “leader of the free world”, when the USA set off to invade Iraq against the wishes of most developed nations and against the wishes of the UN, it signaled a major change in its foreign policy. Instead of working within the international community, and holding to international law, as it did during the post-war Eisenhower administration, it now pays little regard to the international community and international law. The USA is now a rogue state, and an exceptionally dangerous one at that given its massive military and its propensity to invade other nations. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/44 "2004-11-23T08:27:53Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > Great. Then we’re in agreement that use of this nomenclature is not reserved for Yanks. Yes, but when half the time it’s being used ironically or sarcastically it doesn’t really count as a problem. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/45 "2004-11-23T10:21:02Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Yes, but when half the time it’s being used ironically or sarcastically it doesn’t really count as a problem. I’m not sure I see your point, or even agree with your distillation. Tell me, did you investigate all the linked references, or is your phrase “half the time” an arbitrary figure based solely on rhetorical profiteering? Regardless, I think it’s been made clear that a great many people outside the United States use _Leader of the Free World_ in all sincerity when either referring to my nation or my president. Heck, even Scots do it. And quite a bit, actually. By your criteria, just one newspaper, _The Scotsman_, has “non-sarcastically” used this phrase 10 times in 2004. Here’s a convenient instance: > [@](#): > > _The Scotsman_ (from my original link) > > BY WEDNESDAY morning, the presidential race between George Bush and John Kerry will be over, and America will have selected the leader of the Free World. Maybe. There is, in fact, a strong likelihood that Campaign 2004 has weeks, if not months, left to run. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/46 "2004-11-23T10:43:19Z")
> [@The\_Llama](#): > > I guess, but I’d still say that a ban on same sex marriage is still better than, say, the rights denied to women in some middle eastern countries. You know, like the right to trial in a rape case. Which isn’t even close to your original question. Yes most democratic industrial countries have a broad number of civil rights and protections roughly comparable American ones. American history has shown (Japanese internment), a written constitution does not necessarily prevent abuses. If you think otherwise, grab some facts and let’s start a new thread. Hate laws in Canada may not be your best bet, check a thread from 6 months ago I think. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/47 "2004-11-23T10:51:52Z")
I find it disturbing that the people [here](http://yourewelcomeverybody.com/) believe he is the leader of the free world. I don’t want to be part of that world, let alone have that lot vote for the leader. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/48 "2004-11-23T17:01:27Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > Regardless, I think it’s been made clear that a great many people outside the United States use _Leader of the Free World_ in all sincerity when either referring to my nation or my president. Heck, even Scots do it. And quite a bit, actually. Just because sarcasm is not indicated, do not assume it isn’t there. Besides, Bush _is_ the leader of the free world. It’s just that if you don’t agree with everything he says, you don’t get to be in the free world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Llama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@The\_Llama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Llama)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090/49 "2004-11-23T17:46:07Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Which isn’t even close to your original question. Yes most democratic industrial countries have a broad number of civil rights and protections roughly comparable American ones. American history has shown (Japanese internment), a written constitution does not necessarily prevent abuses. If you think otherwise, grab some facts and let’s start a new thread. Hate laws in Canada may not be your best bet, check a thread from 6 months ago I think. Yeah, I totally know that. I just couldn’t come up with an example, so I used that one to simply illustrate my point. And as I said, it’s not that I think otherwise, it’s that I haven’t given it any thought until now and wanted some help. I will be doing some reading, and maybe we can start another thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leader-of-the-free-world/276090.md?page=2)