# Learning musical scales **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174 "2015-05-16T14:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/1 "2015-05-16T14:11:58Z")
If this should be in Café Society please feel free to move it. I’m learning to play guitar and I always hear or read about the importance of learning scales. The problem for me is that I can’t find a clear explanation of why it’s so important. I’ve got books of tabs of favourite musicians and bands and I practice those and I am gradually improving on certain songs, which I think would occur even if I didn’t practice scales (which I do). What is the significance or importance of this? My guess, which could be completely wrong, is that knowing certain scales would allow some improvising or composing. For example, I’ve got one book of blues riffs and I was thinking that if I practiced blues scales that would allow me to add to the riffs in this book. Is that it or is there something else? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/2 "2015-05-16T14:15:48Z")
**Moderator Action** Moving thread from General Questions to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/3 "2015-05-16T14:20:11Z")
> **[So, my 13YO niece wants me to give her guitar lessons](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=744114)** > > My 13YO niece messaged me on Facebook. “I want guitar lessons for Christmas.” She means (in context) that she wants me to teach her to play guitar. Not pay for professional lessons. The problem is … I abandoned the guitar 20+ years ago, to devote... Please see Post #12 in the thread above for my approach to learning guitar. Scales are helpful for muscle memory and understanding both the fretboard and which notes sound “good” together. But only if you find that playing scales is something you find yourself wanting to do. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/4 "2015-05-16T14:25:27Z")
What type of guitar playing are you doing? My personal opinion on this is that if you are playing rhythm guitar and mostly doing chords, then scales aren’t very important. The more music theory you learn the better, but for this type of guitar playing you can get by just fine by learning chords and the more common chord progressions, and strumming rhythms. On the other hand, if you are playing jazz guitar, scales are extremely important, and the standard jazz chord progressions will also be much more important. The blues have a bit less improvisation than jazz, and learning the blues chord progressions is very important, but solos and some improvisation will require a decent knowledge of scales. If you are playing rock and roll lead guitar, scales are also very important, especially the more oddball scales as those are often used in lead structures. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/5 "2015-05-16T15:11:58Z")
Scales are important when it comes to improvising and composing as has been explained. However, I’ve found that learning arpeggios was way more efficient. I spent 20 years trying to use scales while improvising with poor results. Basically, I was running notes all over the fretboard and it sounded… not awful but… boring. I recently discovered that every time I stumbled on something that sounded good, it was because it was very close to the arpeggio of the chord that was in the background. Now, I target almost exclusively the relevant arpeggio when I improvise, perhaps adding a few extra note (sixth, chromaticism) for occasional colour. Improvising is not about cramming in all the notes you know. It’s about picking the interesting ones and leaving the bland ones out. My improvisations are nothing to write home about but they sound way better than they did a few years ago. The same goes for composing. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/6 "2015-05-16T16:31:17Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > What type of guitar playing are you doing? > > My personal opinion on this is that if you are playing rhythm guitar and mostly doing chords, then scales aren’t very important. The more music theory you learn the better, but for this type of guitar playing you can get by just fine by learning chords and the more common chord progressions, and strumming rhythms. > > On the other hand, if you are playing jazz guitar, scales are extremely important, and the standard jazz chord progressions will also be much more important. The blues have a bit less improvisation than jazz, and learning the blues chord progressions is very important, but solos and some improvisation will require a decent knowledge of scales. > > If you are playing rock and roll lead guitar, scales are also very important, especially the more oddball scales as those are often used in lead structures. My intent is rock lead and jazz and blues. At the moment I’m working on NIB by Black Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/7 "2015-05-16T17:32:43Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > What is the significance or importance of this? My guess, which could be completely wrong, is that knowing certain scales would allow some improvising or composing. For example, I’ve got one book of blues riffs and I was thinking that if I practiced blues scales that would allow me to add to the riffs in this book. Is that it or is there something else? The significance of learning scales is to build up your ear and hands to understand instinctively which notes to play when you are playing in a particular key or mode. It’s not important to learning _songs_, but it’s important to understanding _music._ ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/8 "2015-05-16T17:53:07Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > My intent is rock lead and jazz and blues. At the moment I’m working on NIB by Black Sabbath. Do you play Guitar Hero or Rockband? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/9 "2015-05-16T18:11:16Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Do you play Guitar Hero or Rockband? Are either one a good way to learn? Serious question. They look fun and if you can actually learn something I may just pick up a guitar. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/10 "2015-05-16T18:58:59Z")
I study at Justin guitar. Most of the site is free. He does have an excellent scales dvd for sale. I bought it and he emphasizes **how too apply and use scales**. One of his peeves is teachers that just say learn these scales. Leaving the student wondering what to do with them. I didn’t mind buying his dvd’s on strumming and the one on scales. He gives away most of his course completely free. It’s on youtube and on his web site. He’s got over a hundred free song tutorials on youtube. Theres just a few very special topics that require the dvd’s. these are the three I bought and studied. I still go back to them as a refresher. I saved a few bucks and got the download option. Burned my own dvd. Strumming Techniques 1 Strumming Techniques 2 Master The Major Scale Module [http://www.justinguitar.com/en/PR-000-Products.php](http://www.justinguitar.com/en/PR-000-Products.php) > [@](#): > > This DVD is one I am very proud of, having seen many students work through this and come out being able to play the major scale confidently all over the neck. The DVD focuses on the G Major Scale throughout, exploring one position at a time and doing multiple exercises to help you USE the major scales. There is little to be learned from playing scales up and down, but a lot to be learned by using them, which is the big goal of this DVD. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/11 "2015-05-16T19:06:56Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Are either one a good way to learn? > > Serious question. > > They look fun and if you can actually learn something I may just pick up a guitar. They don’t teach you to play guitar. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/12 "2015-05-16T19:14:16Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > My intent is rock lead and jazz and blues. At the moment I’m working on NIB by Black Sabbath. I come from the piano side of things, but I do play a bit of guitar, and the same basic musical building blocks apply to piano and guitar. I personally do think scales are fundamental, especially if you’re going to do something like blues improvisation. Basic blues is a good place to start, and the patterns on the guitar (the “blues boxes”) lay out rather nicely under the fingers. If you learn the basic patterns/scales and commit them to muscle memory, you’ll be able to know what notes should sound good, be better able to connect from riff to riff, to improvise, etc. Eventually, after you become proficient, you should be able add notes outside the standard blues scale to taste. But many, many rock solos are just based purely on the blues scale for the key. If you start playing through many transcribed rock solos (via tab, ear, or musical notation), you probably will end up figuring out the patterns anyway. But it’s nice to know where the “right” notes are without thinking. When I first learned to improvise via the blues, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t even think it was possible for me to learn. I just thought it was something that came natural to some musicians and others just struggled at it. I picked up a book that taught me the basics of the scale, a few examples and riffs, a background accompaniment (in this case, just a basic root-fifth, root-sixth quarter note pattern for the left hand on the piano), and then I just started playing around with those notes. Through some trial-and-error, and through listening to how other musicians strung these notes together, I started piecing together how to play these notes together. Knowing the scale and the pool of notes typically chosen from in a solo made it a lot faster and a lot easier to learn and mimic solos on my own. It took a lot of “noodling” around before it started to sound good, but that sort of playful learning period where you’re trying different things and experimenting I feel is important in learning to play instinctively. (At least it was for me. I’m not trying to say my method of learning is THE method of learning or that it will work for all people. And learning scales helps this along, in my opinion. It helps to organize the notes and it becomes easier not to hit the “wrong” notes because you know if you’re in, say, the key of E, that E, G, A, (A#/Bb), B, and D are all “safe” notes to choose from. If rock and blues is your interest, I would start with something like the minor pentatonic (E,G,A,B,D), then once that is comfortable, add the A#/Bb. Of course, with guitar you also need to learn which notes are good for bending and how far you can bend them. Over time, through listening to others solos, playing through them, and experimenting on your own, you’ll figure out these patterns, and how these bends sound in context. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/13 "2015-05-16T19:15:26Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Are either one a good way to learn? > Serious question. > They look fun and if you can actually learn something I may just pick up a guitar. From what I’ve seen, Rocksmith seems to be a better choice if you want to learn real guitar. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/14 "2015-05-16T20:39:14Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Are either one a good way to learn? > Serious question. > They look fun and if you can actually learn something I may just pick up a guitar. If someone is looking to learn leads, I get the impression that the games are as good a way as learning scales. You do NOT learn music theory, but you get the muscle memory… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/15 "2015-05-16T22:11:58Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > If someone is looking to learn leads, I get the impression that the games are as good a way as learning scales. You do NOT learn music theory, but you get the muscle memory… Maybe they’ve changed this, but Guitar Hero and Rockband both use little toy guitars with five buttons on them. They don’t correspond to anything on an actual guitar. Rocksmith uses a real guitar and actually teaches you songs that you can play on an instrument away from the game. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/16 "2015-05-16T22:28:35Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Maybe they’ve changed this, but Guitar Hero and Rockband both use little toy guitars with five buttons on them. They don’t correspond to anything on an actual guitar. Rocksmith uses a real guitar and actually teaches you songs that you can play on an instrument away from the game. Oops. Sorry I meant that one. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/17 "2015-05-17T09:08:43Z")
Scales are the tools needed to improvise lead. If you’re playing notes from the correct scale (for that song) than they will be correct. Hair metal guys can go for several minutes hitting those notes. That’s different from the melody. The melody requires very specific notes. Its the hook from the song people hum or sing. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/18 "2015-05-17T12:28:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I come from the piano side of things, but I do play a bit of guitar, and the same basic musical building blocks apply to piano and guitar. I personally do think scales are fundamental, especially if you’re going to do something like blues improvisation. Basic blues is a good place to start, and the patterns on the guitar (the “blues boxes”) lay out rather nicely under the fingers. If you learn the basic patterns/scales and commit them to muscle memory, you’ll be able to know what notes should sound good, be better able to connect from riff to riff, to improvise, etc. Eventually, after you become proficient, you should be able add notes outside the standard blues scale to taste. But many, many rock solos are just based purely on the blues scale for the key. If you start playing through many transcribed rock solos (via tab, ear, or musical notation), you probably will end up figuring out the patterns anyway. But it’s nice to know where the “right” notes are without thinking. > > When I first learned to improvise via the blues, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t even think it was possible for me to learn. I just thought it was something that came natural to some musicians and others just struggled at it. I picked up a book that taught me the basics of the scale, a few examples and riffs, a background accompaniment (in this case, just a basic root-fifth, root-sixth quarter note pattern for the left hand on the piano), and then I just started playing around with those notes. Through some trial-and-error, and through listening to how other musicians strung these notes together, I started piecing together how to play these notes together. Knowing the scale and the pool of notes typically chosen from in a solo made it a lot faster and a lot easier to learn and mimic solos on my own. It took a lot of “noodling” around before it started to sound good, but that sort of playful learning period where you’re trying different things and experimenting I feel is important in learning to play instinctively. (At least it was for me. I’m not trying to say my method of learning is THE method of learning or that it will work for all people. And learning scales helps this along, in my opinion. It helps to organize the notes and it becomes easier not to hit the “wrong” notes because you know if you’re in, say, the key of E, that E, G, A, (A#/Bb), B, and D are all “safe” notes to choose from. > > If rock and blues is your interest, I would start with something like the minor pentatonic (E,G,A,B,D), then once that is comfortable, add the A#/Bb. Of course, with guitar you also need to learn which notes are good for bending and how far you can bend them. Over time, through listening to others solos, playing through them, and experimenting on your own, you’ll figure out these patterns, and how these bends sound in context. Yeah, this really is the way. **velomont** - are you really focused on learning leads first? How come? To be clear: a lot of folks do it that way, and if it is working for you, go for it. From my POV, I have always focused on rhythm work first: I could sell the song, play stuff that sounded “more complete”; and by focusing on the rhythm, I could slip in lead fills here and there, and use that as my way to learn and build out my improv capabilities. Again - not looking to make you change; just thinking about learning. There was a thread a few years ago on how to approach leads. I laid out my approach to it. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/19 "2015-05-17T13:09:06Z")
Thanks everyone for the advice and info. I’ve considered getting Rocksmith but I am seeing progression as I’m going. WordMan, The reason I prefer lead to rhythm is that, from my perspective and at my stage of things rhythm doesn’t really sound like anything. Almost as though it demands a singer (which I’m not) or something else accompanying me. So I guess the melody is more important to me in my efforts. I’ll check out your thread as well. I look forward to seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174/20 "2015-05-17T13:25:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That’s different from the melody. The melody requires very specific notes. Its the hook from the song people hum or sing. Sure, but even the melody is pulled from the scale, so it’s good to know. And you can embellish melody notes with notes from the scale (and also from outside the scale, but let’s keep it simple.) I’ll be honest. I don’t really practice scales in the play-the-scale-up-and-down-the-keyboard-or-fretboard sense (well, I haven’t for a couple of decades), but I know what notes are in the scale. For me, “practicing scales” is improvising and just general noodling around, playing from notes from the scale, so I develop the muscle memory, as well as visual memory, to instinctively know where the notes are, and learn how to string the notes together (which notes are good with each other, which to be careful with, etc.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/learning-musical-scales/720174.md?page=2)