# Leave the birthrate alone **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2026, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286 "2026-04-15T12:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2026, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/101 "2026-04-18T02:07:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Fine, use whatever term is acceptable to you. But my question remains, are some cultures profoundly illiberal by the standard of human rights that we value? And is the fear that immigrants from such cultures will perpetuate the oppressive values of their home societies rather than uphold human rights as we define them a legitimate one? FWIW, if you want an objective metric for western values, the universal declaration of human rights from the UN is a good place. > **[Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights)** > > A milestone document in the history of human rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights set out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected. It has been translated into over 500 languages. I think fundamentally it is more about sentientism, the idea that sentient creatures deserve quality of life, dignity, autonomy, etc. That and protection of traditionally marginalized and mistreated groups. But then you run into issues like animal rights. A Jainist or buddhist culture may have more respect for animal rights than a western nation, and a westerner going there and eating meat would be seen as abhorrent and deeply immoral. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2026, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/102 "2026-04-18T02:31:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > China with its one-child policy used authoritarian force to control women’s bodies. Romania with its high-birthrate policy also used authoritarian rule to control women’s bodies. I note the factors in common. Yeah fuck that. Women should be in control of their reproductive capabilities, at an individual level. Make all else political subservient to that and you’ve got a viable model for a political system. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2026, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/103 "2026-04-18T02:39:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > But my question remains, are some cultures profoundly illiberal by the standard of human rights that we value? And is the fear that immigrants from such cultures will perpetuate the oppressive values of their home societies rather than uphold human rights as we define them a legitimate one? That’s a crap question, on the basis of all the Muslim feminists and LGBTQ activists I’ve known and worked with over the years. The mindset that frames such a question erases those folks, makes them invisible. That mindset has to go. Throw it on the trash heap of the intellect. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2026, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/104 "2026-04-19T02:14:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s a crap question > **[Reactions to the September 11 attacks | Palestinian reaction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#Palestinian_reaction)** > > Yasser Arafat and nearly all the leaders of the Palestinian Authority (PA) condemned the attacks. Arafat said of the attacks: "It's unbelievable. We completely condemn this very dangerous attack, and I convey my condolences to the American people, to the American president and to the American administration, not only in my name but on behalf of the Palestinians." He gave blood for victims of the attack in a Gaza hospital. Arafat also organized an interfaith Christian-Muslim vigil in Bethlehem The... > A poll of [Palestinians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians "Palestinians") conducted by the [Fafo Foundation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafo_Foundation "Fafo Foundation") in 2005 found that 65% of respondents supported “Al Qaeda bombings in the USA and Europe”.[[120]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_September_11_attacks#cite_note-120) > **[Only one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in...](https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/)** > > A new poll commissioned by HJS has found that only one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel on October 7. The poll also found … Continued > • Almost half of British Muslims say Jews have too much power over UK government policy, with similar numbers thinking the same for US foreign policy. > > • British Muslims are more likely to have a positive than a negative view of Hamas, a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK. > > • Nearly half of British Muslims would back the removal of an MP if they took a different stance on Israel/Palestine to them. > > • 52% want to make it illegal to show a picture of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed. > > • 32% of British Muslims favour the implementation of Sharia Law, and the same number the declaration of Islam as national religion. The issue is that issues like this make it easier for far right fascists to win elections. If people are forced to pick between far right, brown skinned, immigrant fascism vs far right, caucasian, domestic fascism, they’ll pick the latter. But its still fascism. Having said that, Muslims only make up about 6% of the population of the UK and they aren’t going to get any of this passed into law. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2026, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/105 "2026-04-19T05:39:23Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2026, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/106 "2026-04-19T05:44:02Z")
**Moderating** Reviewing this post and the thread at this point. Thread will be closed for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2026, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/107 "2026-04-19T15:43:55Z")
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**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/109 "2026-04-20T01:59:44Z")
A society choosing to do things that make childrearing easier in no way includes that society infringing on how women should control their own reproductive systems. IOW, that there’s a choice to own on not own a car says nothing about the benefits of the government maintaining paved roads. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/110 "2026-04-20T02:03:44Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1029424/3): > > So if your decision to have or not have children , it would fall on you to raise the child. If the government has no say in it. They shouldn’t have any responsibility to raise the child. If you decide to go to the store, it should fall on you to build the road to get there. If you want to visit a park, it should fall on you to maintain the grounds. I mean, the purpose of government is to provide services for its citizens to create a good society for all. Why is the decision to have children an exception, where the government should have no responsibilty for its citizens? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/112 "2026-04-20T02:38:05Z")
It’s also a function of government to improve the economic efficiency of a society. That’s typically the reason given for maintaining roads. Easing the burden of rearing the children who will support the current working generation, and ensuring that they have the health and education they need to step in and become economically productive is very much in the interest the nation as a whole. I can “save money” for the future. But the goods and services i will will need in my old age, everything from fresh vegetables to healthcare to passable roads, are things that society is going to need to create in the future. That can’t happen without future workers. I need other people to be rearing kids. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/113 "2026-04-20T02:38:52Z")
That should be a response to @Llamadrama , not to @TroutMan . Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/114 "2026-04-20T02:43:27Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1029424/4): > > The building of roads is not my decision. We, as society, and through our government decide to build roads. This involves taxes and a public works department. And a whole lotta government decisions. It’s the same with a social safety net. Not your decision. We, as a society, decide to provide one (or, let’s not kid ourselves here, all too often not, unfortunately). It’s really not that hard. We are capable of seeing how children who are malnourished and uneducated develop and contrast that against children who receive proper nutrition and education, and then decide that actually, society is better off if all children have access to education and nutrition irrespective of the means of their parents. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/116 "2026-04-20T03:21:35Z")
It’s the difference between the collective and the individual. Society has a say in if they want to create a society where children are supported, and where women feel their children will be supported. Society has zero say if an individual woman chooses to have a child. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/118 "2026-04-20T03:31:48Z")
Of course society has a say. Society sets the accounting rules and taxes and incentives, and builds the infrastructure that determine whether your industry will flourish or flounder. Society builds the infrastructure (roads, power lines, etc.) that influence where you choose to live. Society build the schools and sets the social safety net that influences whether a woman wants to have kids. But in a decent society, society doesn’t force you to be a coal miner, nor to live in a certain place, nor to bear (or not bear) children. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/119 "2026-04-20T03:42:46Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1029424/5): > > Fair enough point, but in the context of this thread, is it the sole right/responsibility of the women to have or have not children? I don’t understand this conflation of right and responsibility. It is the sole right of a person who is pregnant to determine whether to continue carrying a pregnancy to term, same as it is the sole right of any person to decide whether to donate their own kidney or bone marrow to another person. It’s bodily autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/121 "2026-04-20T03:50:35Z")
Only to the same extent as society providing hospitals is controlling the murder rate. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/123 "2026-04-20T04:07:04Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1029424/6): > > That’s controlling the birth rate. That’s pro-have kids. We as a society will help you. > > You can’t have it both ways. I’m sorry, I don’t understand your argument. What are the two ways I can’t have? Society can choose to encourage children by providing support. Women can individually choose to have children. That’s _mostly_ the way it is in the US today. Are you saying we can’t have it the way we currently have it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/124 "2026-04-20T05:57:34Z")
But you’d sure as hell complain if the government either forced you to own a car or forced you to never own one… The roads aren’t the analagous part to the baby, the car is. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1029424/4): > > We, as society, and through our government decide to build roads. And we, as a society, decide we want childcare/lunches.community centers/playparks. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/125 "2026-04-20T09:54:01Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s a crap question, on the basis of all the Muslim feminists and LGBTQ activists I’ve known and worked with over the years. The mindset that frames such a question erases those folks, makes them invisible. That mindset has to go. Throw it on the trash heap of the intellect. Indeed. Extremists have (more or less successfully) tried to hijack Islam since the 70’s, using the enormous influx of money generated by OPEC’s action. To judge ALL Muslims based on the opinions and loud voices of this minority is akin to judging ALL Christians based on the opinion and loud voices of fundie Christians. There is a reason birthrates have started popping up in public discourse the past five or so years, and it’s all about the despicable “replacement” theory. In country after country in the richest parts of the world, this is being presented as an existential threat. Birth rates are below replacement level, but this shouldn’t really be a surprise. Lead time for children becoming productive is at least 18 years (lest we start accepting child labor). But immigration is a no-no in most, if not all, of these rick countries. Which of course leads to a conundrum. Immigration is a solution, which much shorter lead time, but of course no politician (left or right, in any OECD country) will make an election platform around increasing immigration. There is another solution, though. How about we actually take care of the children and youths that we already have. According to OECD, in 2025 the average youth unemployment (in OECD) was 11.1 %. Seeing that they define the group as 15-24 year old and in most OECD countries get a secondary education, I’d guess that in reality it’s 18 or 19 to 24, meaning the percentage is higher. The U.S: is doing slightly better at 8.7, Spain is a disaster with 26.5. Depending on country, they’re on the dole, stuck living with their parents, have the wrong education or any of a myriad reasons. In each case, it’s an individual not working, not paying taxes. Get that unemployment rate down to a ‘normal’ level (IIRC the OECD thinks this should be 2-4 %) and things will start to improve. This will of course not stop the demographic decline, but slow it down somewhat, making it easier to adjust for a new reality. An added bonus is that maybe these young people, seeing a somewhat secure job and a future, might decide to have a kid or two. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2026, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286/126 "2026-04-20T11:25:30Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Depending on country, they’re on the dole, stuck living with their parents, have the wrong education or any of a myriad reasons. In each case, it’s an individual not working, not paying taxes. Get that unemployment rate down to a ‘normal’ level (IIRC the OECD thinks this should be 2-4 %) and things will start to improve. This will of course not stop the demographic decline, but slow it down somewhat, making it easier to adjust for a new reality. > > An added bonus is that maybe these young people, seeing a somewhat secure job and a future, might decide to have a kid or two. Thing is, the nations with the worst birth rates appear to be having problems in large part because of _too much_ work. People who have almost no free time don’t have time for a relationship, much less children. You’d have to heavily interfere with the job market, forbidding more than a certain amount of work per person and so on to _force_ corporations to hire more people. I doubt it would be easier than opening up immigration. And while valuable from a social justice perspective, there’s no guarantee it would actually increase the birth rate. Speaking of immigration, in a number of cases it’s really too late for _anything but_ immigration to work. You aren’t going to change social trends like this on a dime, and even if places like South Korea and Japan had a huge increase in birth rate _right now,_ it’d still be 20 or more years before the first few “extra” people enter the work force. Immigration is really the only fast way to increase the working population, we can’t fast-grow people in vats sci-fi style. The reduction in birth rates is to a large degree an _artificial_ problem, one that exists because of that same resistance to immigration. And trying to change that birth rate involves either the previously mentioned highly unethical coercive methods (and their downsides), or the kind of social engineering that governments have a really poor history of success with. I don’t think it can be morally or practically justified to try to alter the birth rate when there already exists an easy, ethical solution to demographic issues that we _know_ will work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-the-birthrate-alone/1029286.md?page=7)