# Leave this kid alone! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214 "2007-10-10T15:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/1 "2007-10-10T15:26:02Z")
Jesus, [these](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-te.frosts10oct10,0,5063837,print.story?coll=bal_tab01_layout) people are fucking insane! The right looks bad enough, standing in the way of kids insurance, but these people are certifiable. Michelle “Crazy as a Shithouse Rat” Malkin is showing up at the Frosts house, ostensibly to “see how much it was worth.” Are the so bereft of human dignity and arguments that they have to take on a family that stood up for SCHIP? A few choice quotes… “If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. … I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I’d do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info.” […] “Hang ‘em. Publically,” [a Redstate] contributor wrote. “Let ‘em twist in the wind and be eaten by ravens. Then maybe the bunch of socialist patsies will think twice.” Now, I realize these are comments on a website, and anymosity really brings out the bile in some people, but wishing death on kids that survived (barely) an horrific car accident seems beyond the pale. Christ, the Right wing noise machine is full of loonies. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/2 "2007-10-10T15:45:01Z")
If you volunteer to be the poster-child for a controversial piece of legislation, you shouldn’t be amazed when its opponents investigate and dispute your claims. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/3 "2007-10-10T15:50:33Z")
Well, i agree with the last sentence of your post, and i think that Michelle Malkin is a shrill harpy who generally says nothing worth listening to. I’m also a supporter of the S-CHIP program, and think that Bush is an asshole for vetoing it. But i’m not sure i agree with your post title. If Democratic lawmakers and the kid’s parents are going to parade a 12-year-old in front of Congress and get him to read out a prepared speech, [written by Democratic senate staffers](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.democrats29sep29,0,1093633.story), on the radio supporting a Democrat-sponsored bill of national significance, then they have to accept that the kid has now become part of the public debate on this issue, and should not cry foul when opponents of the legislation bring up the kid as part of their own talking points. If you knowingly and consciously become a part of the political process in this country, then you have to take your lumps. I don’t blame the kid; i blame his parents and the politicians who no doubt engineered this little stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/4 "2007-10-10T15:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] If you knowingly and consciously become a part of the political process in this country, then you have to take your lumps. I don’t blame the kid; i blame his parents and the politicians who no doubt engineered this little stunt. [/QUOTE] There’s calling foul on using a kid for cheap sympathy, pointing out that as a 12-year old he has no credibility, and of course attacking the points he makes. And then there’s going to his house and calling for his public execution. One of these things is not like the other. One of these things demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the right-wing hate machine. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/5 "2007-10-10T16:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] One of these things is not like the other. One of these things demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the right-wing hate machine. [/QUOTE] Oh, please. Anonymous posters hurling epithets and wishing ruin on people demonstrates that right-wingers are morally bankrupt? If so, then Youtube must be the most right-wing site in existence. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/6 "2007-10-10T16:05:53Z")
Using terms like “right-wing hate machine” is just going to make many people write you off as yet another loony leftist. There’s no shortage of extremist vitriol on both sides of most issues. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/7 "2007-10-10T16:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Oh, please. Anonymous posters hurling epithets and wishing ruin on people demonstrates that right-wingers are morally bankrupt? If so, then Youtube must be the most right-wing site in existence. [/QUOTE] False equivalence. Menocchio does not say that anonymous epithet hurling makes one a right-wing loony, only that they often go together. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/8 "2007-10-10T16:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] There’s calling foul on using a kid for cheap sympathy, pointing out that as a 12-year old he has no credibility, and of course attacking the points he makes. And then there’s going to his house and calling for his public execution. One of these things is not like the other. One of these things demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the right-wing hate machine. [/QUOTE] Well, the person calling for his execution was some anonymous moron on an internet forum. I don’t think such crazy utterances should be taken as indicative of more general feeling when they come from left-wing idiots, and i extend the same courtesy to the right. All sides of politics have hate-filled nutbars, and anyone who would call for someone to be executed based on their political beliefs is outside the realm of civilized discourse and should be ignored by everyone, IMO. The person who made this call for execution was NOT the person who visited the house, which seems to be what you’re implying in your own statement. Michelle Malkin went to where Frost’s business is, and she drove by his house. While i don’t consider Malkin a \*good \*journalist, she is something of an internet journalist, and the fact is that many people read her for her opinion on topics like this. Visiting the guy’s workplace and his house are perfectly legitimate activities for any journalist interested in digging further into this story. In a debate over who should qualify for government assistance for healthcare, the wealth of the people in question is a valid subject for scrutiny and analysis. While i support S-CHIP, i must admit that i was somewhat surprised that a couple who owns their own home, owns a business, puts their kids through private school (admittedly with financial aid) and has at least one relatively new car would qualify for extensive aid. Note that i don’t think it’s a bad thing that the family got aid. I think that, if there’s something that’s really lacking in the conservative critiques of this case, it’s any real engagement with the question of whether we should expect stable-but-not-wealthy people to descend into penury _before_ we help with their health costs. It seems to me that health programs should have as their goal not only ensuring that the desperately poor get health care that they can’t afford, but that people who are getting by should not have to sell everything they own in order to get treatment. But this kid and his family made themselves part of that debate, and they can’t now throw their hands up and say “Don’t pick on us!” ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/9 "2007-10-10T16:21:48Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] If you volunteer to be the poster-child for a controversial piece of legislation, you shouldn’t be amazed when its opponents investigate and dispute your claims. [/QUOTE] [Well it’s not that simple.](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/washington/10memo.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1192032863-jrlWi8o/9muUr4nFyFRzaQ) NY Times article link. Basically a smear campain, like the Swift Boat Veterens for Truth is being launched against this family. > [@](#): > > The critics accused Graeme’s father, Halsey, a self-employed woodworker, of choosing not to provide insurance for his family of six, even though he owned his own business. They pointed out that Graeme attends an expensive private school. And they asserted that the family’s home had undergone extensive remodeling, and that its market value could exceed $400,000. > > One critic, in an e-mail message to Graeme’s mother, Bonnie, warned: “Lie down with dogs, and expect to get fleas.” As it turns out, the Frosts say, Graeme attends the private school on scholarship. The business that the critics said Mr. Frost owned was dissolved in 1999. The family’s home, in the modest Butchers Hill neighborhood of Baltimore, was bought for $55,000 in 1990 and is now worth about $260,000, according to public records. And, for the record, the Frosts say, their kitchen counters are concrete. So the claims against the family are ‘inaccurate’ and then emailing the people at home is pretty low. If I testify to congress, a public forum, and you want to make a claim that I’m wrong or present a different view, then do it in a public forum. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/10 "2007-10-10T16:22:43Z")
The probelm isn’t that the kid is now part of the public dialogue. The problem is that shit-slingers like Limbaugh play so fast and loose with the facts because they have no real interest in the truth that the opportunity for any meaningful dialogue is lost. Did the parents validly qualify for the S-CHIP program? Was that assesed properly by the state? Maybe he’s struggling as a small business man and can’t rely on a group insurance polcy he doesn’t have and can’t afford the other polcies oput there (though I think it’s irresponsible not to have health insurance, especially when you have kids and sometimes you have to give up the American dream of business ownership when other, more important repsonisbilities dictate; still, it’s the kids who’ve been harmed and ins’t that what programs like S-CHIP are aimed at correcting?). Assholes liie Limbaugh will shill to the small businessman when it behooves them and turn on them like an injured animal when they can make politcal hay out of it. This cat owns a warehouse that is part of his business and that warehouse is valued at $160,00 – this says nothing of the encumberances, the equity in that (i.e. the present value of his owership interes) could be zero or negative. So they own a house that has appreciated well in the last seventeen years, that too has been encumbered to make arrangemetns for two disabled children. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/11 "2007-10-10T16:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] So the claims against the family are ‘inaccurate’ and then emailing the people at home is pretty low. If I testify to congress, a public forum, and you want to make a claim that I’m wrong or present a different view, then do it in a public forum. [/QUOTE] I agree with all this. I think that calling the family at home, and emailing them with diatribes, is beyond the pale. Any criticisms or argument against them should be made in the general public sphere. As for the family’s true level of wealth, we’ll probably never know. The _Baltimore Sun_ asked to see their tax returns, but they refused. That’s their right, of course, but in the absence of such figures there is always going to be speculation about exactly what their net worth is. You _NYT_ article points out that they had been refused coverage by three different insurers due to pre-existing conditions. Well, that’s something that should have great prominence in this story. One of the most compelling arguments for public assistance in the area of health care, in my opinion, is that health insurers aren’t actually concerned about health, they’re concerned about money. And if someone can’t get appropriate cover due to pre-existing conditions, then i think society has a responsibility to help them out. On the right wing pundit issue, i certainly wouldn’t be surprised if morons like Michelle Malkin were distorting the truth to suit themselves. My main point in my first post, however, was to take issue with the OP’s thread title, and with the implication that this family was somehow off-limits in the public debate over S-CHIP. The family put themselves firmly into the public debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/12 "2007-10-10T16:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] One of these things is not like the other. One of these things demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the right-wing hate machine. [/QUOTE] Indeed? Then I assume you also agree that the left is morally bankrupt, since I can find similar sorts of bile from anonymous contributors espousing leftist points. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/13 "2007-10-10T17:08:25Z")
From the OP’s link - > [@](#): > > “It’s really frustrating,” said Bonnie Frost, 41, who stated she is upset by the angry Internet posts, e-mails and telephone calls targeting the family. “The whole point of it for me was that this program helped my family, and I wanted it to help others. That’s the message, and I can’t believe the way the spotlight has been taken off of that.” and > [@](#): > > “I’m just trying to understand this moment of nastiness,” Bonnie Frost said. “The nastiness caught me by surprise.” This is someone who is totally not used to internet debating. 😃 My opinion on the subject at hand? My husband and I are in a very similar boat as the Frosts - we’re living okay, but should anything happen, we would fall into “poor” quite quickly. Extreme healthcare costs aren’t likely to bankrupt us, though, thanks to sociallized medicine, and I don’t think they should bankrupt other people who are working for a living and have unfortunate circumstances happen to them. I was glad to hear that there are considerations for people like the Frosts; it has always appalled me that getting sick can ruin you financially in the U.S., and that you’re better off to stay poor so your healthcare doesn’t bankrupt you. But leave the kids out of it. Using them to do ads is pandering, and attacking them is low. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/14 "2007-10-10T17:45:15Z")
[Ezra Klein](http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/its-not-about-v.html): > [@](#): > > Some are saying that the Frost family brought this on themselves when they let their child tell his story. They are saying that when they explained the difference that S-CHIP made in one family’s life, they invited personal attacks, smears, harassing phone calls, the interrogation of their neighbors, etc, etc etc. That’s madness. These are the same individuals, moreover, who were appalled that anyone would levy a personal attack against General David Petraeus, who’d made himself into a major national figure through a press strategy relying on profiles, interviews, and public testimony. > > There is no coherence here. No principle. Only a vicious ritual of destroying those who disagree with them. And I use my words carefully. They are not arguing with the Frost family. They are not questioning their decision to share their story. They are trying to destroy the family’s credibility and intimidate them, and others who might step forward to enter their personal stories into the public discourse, into silence. [More Ezra](http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/what-has-happen.html): > [@](#): > > The shrieking, atavistic ritual of personal destruction the right roars into every few weeks is something different than politics. It is beyond politics. It was done to Scott Beauchamp, a soldier serving in Iraq. It was done to college students from the University of California, at Santa Cruz. Currently, it is being done to a child and his family. And think of those targets: College students, soldiers, children. It can be done to absolutely anyone. I think Ezra’s right. The goal of this sure seems to be to make participation in a public debate so expensive, in terms of the toll on one’s life, that few will dare to do it, unless it’s already how they make their living. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/15 "2007-10-10T17:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=yanceylebeef] Now, I realize these are comments on a website, and anymosity really brings out the bile in some people, but wishing death on kids that survived (barely) an horrific car accident seems beyond the pale. [/QUOTE] (Empasis mine.) Just chiming in to say that I think you meant “anonymity”. Whether that is nitpicking, I leave for you to decide. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/16 "2007-10-10T17:48:52Z")
By comparison, as Ezra points out, [what happens when Republicans introduce children into the debate](http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/ashleys-story.html)? > [@](#): > > Does anyone remember DailyKos launching a feeding frenzy trying to smear or discredit Ashley? Anyone hear of Markos Moulitsas camping out outside her house to see if Ashley was really grieving? His readers interviewing her teachers to see if her academic performance had actually improved as a result of the President’s hug? Did any of that happen? Or did the Left raise some questions about the political appropriateness of the ad without trying to destroy the family’s name and reputation? > > There’s a difference here. And it’s not in which side elevates sympathetic stories and individuals into the public eye. They both do that. It’s in how low the other side stoops in response. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/17 "2007-10-10T18:08:43Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I think Ezra’s right. The goal of this sure seems to be to make participation in a public debate so expensive, in terms of the toll on one’s life, that few will dare to do it, unless it’s already how they make their living. [/QUOTE] Gee, how nice. But you tar your opponents on this board and in American politics pretty badly every chance you get. And I haven’t seen you refrain from using personal attack when the mood suits you. In this, you aren’t terribly innocent, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/18 "2007-10-10T18:19:18Z")
I can’t believe we have so many low life shitsuckers right here who are at least tacitly in support of the smear attacks of a 12 year old boy and his family. Fuck you. You have no code. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/19 "2007-10-10T18:37:56Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I think Ezra’s right. The goal of this sure seems to be to make participation in a public debate so expensive, in terms of the toll on one’s life, that few will dare to do it, unless it’s already how they make their living. [/QUOTE] Valerie Plame may tend to agree. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/20 "2007-10-10T18:40:12Z")
I can’t believe the Frosts didn’t just pull the plug and make another kid. 12 years isn’t that long, it’s not like they got attached to him or anything. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214.md?page=2)