# Leave this kid alone! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214 "2007-10-10T15:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/81 "2007-10-11T16:52:42Z")
Isn’t that just typical of the liberal tedia? Everyone knows that the real problem is welfare queens in foodstamp Cadillacs, but the \*NY Times \* article slants things so that it appears that the bulk of the fraud is being commited by white guys in suits! ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/82 "2007-10-11T16:53:35Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Spoken like a true Republican. :rolleyes: [/quote] I’m not a Republican. > [@](#): > > Is your emotional well-being really more important than the health of your child?? I hope that’s not true, sir, because that would be viciously immoral. No, my son has never been beholden to my emotional well being. The reason why we have him enrolled in CHIP is for his well being. I simply cannot wait until I can start paying my own way rather than being a net drain on society, opening up the possibility that some worse off than I can participate with my son’s withdrawal, simultaneously fulfilling my desire to be a successful and productive member of society. How selfish of me to feel that way, I know. You can continue to pay for my child in perpetuity if you like, unselfish as you are. I’m sure we can come to some sort of arrangement that would benefit him, simultaneously benefiting me. > [@](#): > > We’re way behind the curve regarding universal healthcare anyway. It’s the way of the future, whether you like it or not, and the only reason American hasn’t accepted it yet is because of private corporations (HMO’s, etc.) who profit from our suffering. I agreed with this further up in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/83 "2007-10-11T16:57:20Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] I simply cannot wait until I can start paying my own way rather than being a net drain on society… [/QUOTE] I thought you were in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/84 "2007-10-11T16:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I thought you were in the military. [/QUOTE] I am. I am a traditional Guardsman and a full-time student at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/85 "2007-10-11T17:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] I am. I am a traditional Guardsman and a full-time student at the moment. [/QUOTE] Then I don’t get the “net drain on society” business. It’s a damn shame that we all should be embarrassed about that those people who love the military so very much as they wear their lapel pins couldn’t really give a shit about the military in the form of the men and women in it enough to provide them and their families with decent support. You may be a net drain on the reasonable political component of the SDMB, but on society - I just don’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/86 "2007-10-11T17:13:15Z")
Perhaps you should not have wasted so much time in uniform, **Dave**. Perhaps if you had enrolled in the White Studies Program earlier in life, you could be more productive, selling loud, shiny crap, or New Coke? Then you might well have more personal wealth, which as every _real_ American knows, is the definitive indicator of virtue and social value. Our relations are not cordial, but that is your choice, and not mine. Nothing you have revealed to us in these pages, over the years, gives me any reason whatever to think that you have something to be ashamed of. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/87 "2007-10-11T17:19:47Z")
I know that the folks on the right of the political spectrum dislike Keith Olberman, but [here](http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/11/olbermann-and-maddow-on-the-rights-jihad-on-12-year-old-boy/) is a look at KO and Rachael Maddow talking about this last night on Countdown. Ms. Maddow is an Air America host, so I don’t expect the usual suspects to give her thoughts any credence, but what they are saying is what I was trying to articulate in the OP. Attacking a 12 year old boy and his family for simply stating the facts of their particular case, and how a governement program helped them is reprehensible. They have lost sight of what informed, articulate debate is about, and are covering anyone who disagrees with their mindset with lies, slime and spittle. I’d really be interested to know how deep Sen McConnell’s office is involved in this. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/88 "2007-10-11T17:29:12Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Ah. ‘May’ reach into the billions, over a timeframe of unspecified length. As opposed to “amounts to billions of dollars a year.” [/QUOTE] Sometimes you need to read more than just the headline. > [@](#): > > The Government Accountability Office in Washington and others have estimated that 10 percent of all health care spending nationally is lost to “fraud and abuse.” > > James Mehmet, who retired in 2001 as chief state investigator of Medicaid fraud and abuse in New York City, said he and his colleagues believed that at least 10 percent of state Medicaid dollars were spent on fraudulent claims, while 20 or 30 percent more were siphoned off by what they termed abuse, meaning unnecessary spending that might not be criminal. “So we’re talking about 40 percent of all claims are questionable,” Mr. Mehmet said - an amount that would approach $18 billion a year. Even just the 10% is “billions per year”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/89 "2007-10-11T17:33:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] If you wish to be evenhanded, you’ll probably need to add Spitzer and Andrew Cuomo to this list. [/QUOTE] Spitzer’s been NY Gov for what, eight months? Pataki was gov for a dozen years, during the period all this fraud was going on in a NY-government-administered program. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/90 "2007-10-11T17:33:50Z")
[QUOTE=yanceylebeef] Attacking a 12 year old boy and his family for simply stating the facts of their particular case, and how a governement program helped them is reprehensible. [/QUOTE] Let’s not forget that years ago, certain people (I won’t mention their political affiliation) picked on a certain 13-year-old girl for her looks. Remember “White House dog”? Some people just enjoy being insufferable pricks. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/91 "2007-10-11T17:41:22Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Sometimes you need to read more than just the headline. Even just the 10% is “billions per year”. [/QUOTE] If I’m the one who introduces the cite, yes. It’s the duty of _the person who links_ to a piece of any length in support of a point to point out the most relevant part(s), AFAIAC. The alternative is that I can link to online documents that are hundreds of pages long in support of an assertion, and it becomes your duty to read those hundreds of pages to show that there isn’t anything in there that backs me up. That seems unreasonable to me. That NY Times piece was eight web pages long, and they weren’t short web pages. I wasn’t going to wade through it all on spec. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/92 "2007-10-11T17:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=yanceylebeef] Ms. Maddow is an Air America host, so I don’t expect the usual suspects to give her thoughts any credence, but what they are saying is what I was trying to articulate in the OP. Attacking a 12 year old boy and his family for simply stating the facts of their particular case, and how a governement program helped them is reprehensible. [/QUOTE] I guess it depends on how you define “attacking.” Yes, calling the family names, wishing harm on them, and harassing them are out of bounds. But questioning whether or not a family that sends their kids to private school and lives in a wealthy neighborhood deserves to have government health care is legitimate. As I stated above, this kid was not defending SCHIP as a policy expert. Instead, the kid went on the radio saying that their family had benefitted from SCHIP so the President should support SCHIP expansion. It makes sense, then, to examine whether or not that family should be getting a subsidy. The family volunteered for scrutiny by basically saying that “families like us benefit from SCHIP and that’s why it’s good.” Well, then, should families like them benefit from the taxpayers’ dollars? To put it another way, if a policy analyst goes and starts attacking SCHIP in the media, it’s fair game for the media to analyze that analyst’s numbers and point out information he may have ignored. So when a family goes public to support SCHIP based solely on their personal situation, it makes sense to examine their experience and find out whether or not they left out pertinent information. They were selling their personal story to advance this program. Exploring their personal story to see if there was other relevant information makes perfect sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/93 "2007-10-11T17:42:33Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] That NY Times piece was eight web pages long, and they weren’t short web pages. I wasn’t going to wade through it all on spec. [/QUOTE] The quoted parts that he and I referenced were found on the first page. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/94 "2007-10-11T17:44:19Z")
Just came across [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8305737&postcount=70): [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] All I’m saying is that it was very easy for Marcotte’s critics to go to her blog and find profanity ridden posts, especially ones about religion, that could be used to paint her as an extremist. You can’t do that with Michelle Malkin. While you could dismiss her ideas, you have to do it on an intellectual and not a rhetorical level. [/QUOTE] Seemed relevant, since Michelle Malkin was leading the hyena pack here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/95 "2007-10-11T17:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat] The quoted parts that he and I referenced were found on the first page. [/QUOTE] That’s nice. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/96 "2007-10-11T17:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I wasn’t going to wade through it all on spec. [/QUOTE] Then why did you feel the need to comment on how the cite doesn’t support his claim? Feel free to say that you’re not wading through 8 pages to find the facts, and put the onus on him to quote the relevant parts. Instead, you seem to be in a race to fire off snarky comebacks as quick as your fingers can type. Ultimately, though, it looks like Moto’s facts were right, and we’re not talking about the billions wasted on fraud, we’re talking about how Moto is a lousy debater. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/97 "2007-10-11T18:05:53Z")
The significance of the article is shaded slightly, but significantly. In the midst of a spat about how deserving or undeserving the family may be, we are offered a citation about fraud in the system, as if to suggest that the cited article supports such a position. In fact, the cited article has much more to say about exploitation of the program by _providers_. While it is true that the article is not directly misrepresented, this salient fact is not pointed out. It ought to have been. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/98 "2007-10-11T18:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Then why did you feel the need to comment on how the cite doesn’t support his claim? Feel free to say that you’re not wading through 8 pages to find the facts, and put the onus on him to quote the relevant parts. Instead, you seem to be in a race to fire off snarky comebacks as quick as your fingers can type. Ultimately, though, it looks like Moto’s facts were right, and we’re not talking about the billions wasted on fraud, we’re talking about how Moto is a lousy debater. [/QUOTE] You’re right - I mistakenly assumed that the big news would be in the headline or the opening paragraphs. From the amounts mentioned in the first 5-6 paragraphs of the story, it looked as if the headline accurately represented the article. I agree that **Mr. Moto** now has his cite. Miracles do happen! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/99 "2007-10-11T18:21:02Z")
Are there any shitheels left here who want to take up the argument that the boy and his family should have been subjected to the swiftboat smearing that they received? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214/100 "2007-10-11T18:25:23Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Are there any shitheels left here who want to take up the argument that the boy and his family should have been subjected to the swiftboat smearing that they received? [/QUOTE] Apparently not. But there are several shitheels trying to change the subject. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leave-this-kid-alone/422214.md?page=6)