# Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson Documentary **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586 "2019-01-29T02:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/81 "2019-03-02T14:30:34Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > So, no, I don’t think he’s ‘talking out of his ass’. Read my post again. I clearly referred to the first three paragraphs by the website author. Why do I have to point this out? Anyway, show me a reference that supports anything the author says there. If you can’t, I stick by my statement. The point being, take actual evidence at face value, but unsupported conjecture with a healthy dose of skepticism, and don’t be wowed by the authoritative tone of a statement that is not supported. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/82 "2019-03-02T14:39:47Z")
Here’s another “authoritative” quote: > [@](#): > > These people, the apologists, fall mainly into two different groups: Either they have decided that the accusation that Jackson slept with kids must be false, even if there is plenty of evidence proving otherwise; or they have decided that, hey, maybe it isn’t so bad for an adult man to sleep with young boys after all. > > I want to focus on that second group, because I have encountered many of them over the last few years, and I find them particularly nauseating. These people never had this revelation when Catholic priests took young boys into their bed, or when any other celebrity participated in similar forms of deviancy. They lived their whole lives feeling quite certain that adult men shouldn’t be taking young boys into their bed, until their favorite pop star informed them otherwise. I ask again, how does the author know what these people did or did not think about Catholic priests and sexual molestation _their whole lives_? And who, specifically are these people anyway? Anyone who reads this statement and does not immediately consider the possibility that the author is full of it, well, I’m not even going to characterize them, other than to say they aren’t bring that skepticism I mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/83 "2019-03-02T16:33:45Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Read my post again. I clearly referred to the first three paragraphs by the website author. Why do I have to point this out? Anyway, show me a reference that supports anything the author says there. If you can’t, I stick by my statement. The point being, take actual evidence at face value, but unsupported conjecture with a healthy dose of skepticism, and don’t be wowed by the authoritative tone of a statement that is not supported. You don’t want evidence. You just want to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/84 "2019-03-03T02:10:07Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Here’s another “authoritative” quote: > > I ask again, how does the author know what these people did or did not think about Catholic priests and sexual molestation _their whole lives_? And who, specifically are these people anyway? Anyone who reads this statement and does not immediately consider the possibility that the author is full of it, well, I’m not even going to characterize them, other than to say they aren’t bring that skepticism I mentioned above. Why are you so invested in this? You’re starting to remind me of some of his fans during the trial, refusing to even consider the possibility that their idol could be guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/85 "2019-03-03T12:56:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > What proof of child molestation would you expect, other than the testimony of the molested? The testimony is not proof, it’s evidence, and should be the start of the investigation, not the end of it. I’m not certain we have actual proof Jackson was a molester, but we certainly have a lot of evidence, including the known fact that he spend time alone in bed with young boys, and that he then paid them off to stop them talking about it. But unsupported testimony should _never_ be considered proof. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/86 "2019-03-03T13:31:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The testimony is not proof, it’s evidence, and should be the start of the investigation, not the end of it. > > I’m not certain we have actual proof Jackson was a molester, but we certainly have a lot of evidence, including the known fact that he spend time alone in bed with young boys, and that he then paid them off to stop them talking about it. But unsupported testimony should _never_ be considered proof. In court cases there is seldom 100% proof of anything. The usual standard is ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. People are convicted on the basis of testimony alone every day in courts everywhere. A good recent example of someone convicted of child abuse on the basis of testimony alone, by a unanimous jury verdict, is [Cardinal George Pell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pell#Criminal_charges_and_conviction). ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/87 "2019-03-03T23:20:52Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You don’t want evidence. You just want to argue. Anither mind reader. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/88 "2019-03-03T23:28:23Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You don’t want evidence. You just want to argue. That is, how do you get I want to argue out of the quote of mine? I made a simple request. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/89 "2019-03-03T23:37:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why are you so invested in this? You’re starting to remind me of some of his fans during the trial, refusing to even consider the possibility that their idol could be guilty. This is the second time I’ve been accused of being “invested” in this, whatever that means. What _does_ it mean? I don’t recall this ever being asked of me. Why aren’t you asking this of others? How is this different than any other debate here? Anyway, me, post #62: “So again, what is the best evidence you have seen? Maybe I’ve missed some vital evidence.” This was an honest question and I have, and will continue to, consider evidence that I see. In fact, I’m going to watch the doc tonight. So sorry, Guin, but your suggestion is inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/90 "2019-03-03T23:58:36Z")
People HAVE given you numerous amounts of evidence, and you haven’t said WHY you find it so unconvincing, other than, “meh, circumstancial”. How about the fact that [he owned two books](https://www.mjfacts.com/was-child-pornography-found-in-michael-jacksons-home/) that were extremely common among pedophiles? (As well as [more material](https://www.mjfacts.com/items-found-in-1993-pedophile-books-and-naked-photos/)) Also, why did none of his sleepovers ever feature young girls? Why did he all of a sudden [freak out](https://www.mjfacts.com/mjs-bed-by-invitation-only/) when a child’s mother wouldn’t allow her son to sleep with him? Above all, let me ask you this: would YOU let a child of your’s sleep with Michael Jackson. Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/91 "2019-03-04T00:27:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > People HAVE given you numerous amounts of evidence, and you haven’t said WHY you find it so unconvincing, other than, “meh, circumstancial”. Where do you get this? I haven’t said, “meh, circumstantial” anywhere. As for evidence in this thread being given to me, barely. I’ve asked for evidence here. No one in this thread has given any, other than the MJ Facts site. > [@](#): > > How about the fact that [he owned two books](https://www.mjfacts.com/was-child-pornography-found-in-michael-jacksons-home/) that were extremely common among pedophiles? (As well as [more material](https://www.mjfacts.com/items-found-in-1993-pedophile-books-and-naked-photos/)) I am aware of the books. They are are not evidence of child molestation. This is a perfect example of so-called “evidence” I’ve seen trotted out. Is everyone who ever owned a Sally Mann book of photography a pedophile? As for the photos mentioned at that link, I haven’t seen them. Do you have a link. I’m always interested in possible evidence of Jackson’s alleged crimes. > [@](#): > > Also, why did none of his sleepovers ever feature young girls? Why did he all of a sudden [freak out](https://www.mjfacts.com/mjs-bed-by-invitation-only/) when a child’s mother wouldn’t allow her son to sleep with him? I have no idea. > [@](#): > > Above all, let me ask you this: would YOU let a child of your’s sleep with Michael Jackson. Why or why not? A fool’s errand. If I say yes, maybe you’ll accuse me of being a horrible father. If I say no, maybe you’ll say, “a-ha”, so you _do_ think he may be a pedophile. Sorry, this thread is not about me. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/92 "2019-03-04T00:39:07Z")
As for the book, “The Boy, A Photographic Essay”, a quote from the MJ “Facts” site: > [@](#): > > “This work would probably never make it to the bookshelves today. Indeed, it is astonishing that it ever saw light of day beyond the underground world of sordid publications. This book is a collection of pederastic erotica thinly disguised as a study in photography. Although it is tame and comes nowhere near anything sexual, its mere choice of subject matter is edgey and dangerous.” A quote from the [Amazon entry](https://www.amazon.com/Photographic-Georges-Ronald-Nelson-Martin/dp/B000KW4R5C/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1430186647&sr=8-3&keywords=The+Boy%2C+A+Photographic+Essay) for the book, by an unnamed person, where you can also see some images from the book. > [@](#): > > This is an old photo book just showing boys at play and at school back in the 1960’s. It is a beautiful compilation of very innocent photos, but truly captures visually and in spirit what it is sort of like to be a boy - If you are a male of that era, memories will just come cascading back. Yeah, that guy has no bias. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/93 "2019-03-04T02:05:53Z")
The man freely admitted to inviting children over to sleep with him and then paid them to keep their mouth shut. Yah… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/94 "2019-03-04T02:23:26Z")
I refuse to listen to MJ songs and have for years, changing the radio whenever he comes on. I have no doubt as to his guilt, and am not worried about the slight… very slight… vanishingly slight… possibility that this was all just a big misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/95 "2019-03-04T12:54:16Z")
I’m unsure about the timelines here. Maybe someone can fill me in. There were two legal cases, one civil and one criminal. The civil one was settled out of court, supposedly not because of guilt but because it was cheaper or less of a hassle and he could afford it. The criminal trial ended with a not guilty verdict. After these cases, did he continue the behavior that people considered suspect? Did he continue the odd friendships with little boys? Did he continue to spend time alone with them? Did he continue sleeping with them? If so, why? Unless you were driven by passion, why continue behavior that had caused you so much trouble? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/96 "2019-03-04T13:15:48Z")
Combining these recent, more direct, accusations with the closeness and explicitness of the books removes most of the doubt in my mind. I now feel free to not doubt his guilt. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/97 "2019-03-04T13:17:35Z")
When the man dangled a baby over a hotel balcony, really, I didn’t need much more evidence that MJ was fucked in the head regarding children. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/98 "2019-03-04T13:20:02Z")
I watched Part 1 last night and I need to take all the showers. What hasn’t been mentioned yet is that there must have been a network of employees and enablers around MJ to facilitate his predation. He had built this elaborate system for delivering young boys to him and that required people to maintain that system. I was never a MJ fan so I guess I was immune to his fans, but watching it, I was reminded of what a freak MJ was and how he made my skin crawl whenever I saw him as an adul; his speaking voice was just creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/99 "2019-03-04T13:24:37Z")
I read that towards the end of his life, Marlon Brando would go and hang out at Neverland Ranch. Him an MJ would cruise around in a golf cart with an oxygen tank. Truth is stranger than fiction. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/100 "2019-03-04T13:43:24Z")
When a man with the wealth to _buy The Beatles_ decides to flee the country to wait out a statute of limitations, instead of spending x% of his assets to fight the charges, this tells me two things: 1. The man expected to go broke, or to jail, if he fought this shit. 2. Likely because there was so. much. more. to be revealed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=6)