# Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson Documentary **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586 "2019-01-29T02:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/101 "2019-03-04T13:55:14Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Quite frankly, I’m not asking for any, since this isn’t all that important to me. And I suspect none exists because if it did, it would surely have come to light by now. It’s just that I see people all the time saying, well _of course he’s guilty_, and I refuse to fall prey to unsubstantiated allegations. Now, I know upthread I may have suggested I am asking for something specific, but what I mean though is if something is offered then I will take a look. Otherwise, meh. You have 34 posts (#2 has 8) in a thread defending a known pedophile who fled the country to avoid a trial about his pedophilia. This issue matters more to you than maybe you realize. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/102 "2019-03-04T14:31:58Z")
I have always loved MJ’s music and believe he is an iconic legend of all time. If you called me a fan, I wouldn’t object. Over the years I’ve vacillated between thinking he was falsely accused by money grubbers to thinking he’d might have been inappropriate with a few kids. [This is how I feel about these latest revelations.](https://tenor.com/view/kanan-hedidthatshit-guilty-gif-9913714) People are free to insist on seeing him as innocent, but it’s obvious to me that this is the more unreasonable position. Grown men inviting little children of no relation into their beds is behavior that would sound all kinds of alarms if we were talking about Dude Bro down the street. But with MJ, people have been much too inclined to dub what would otherwise be a bright red flag as mere eccentricity. Also not surprised that the two accusers are coming out now as opposed to when MJ was alive. They have an easier chance of being believed without MJ’s damn near supernatural influence to overpower their voices. I don’t see this evidence as falsity as much as pragmatism. I’m sure the Move Too movement has helped too. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/103 "2019-03-04T14:49:26Z")
It wasn’t mentioned in last night’s episode, but the Australian mother would reportedly get a call in the middle of the night from MJ to bring her son over and she would deliver him at 1.30 in the morning to Jackson. The boy would go straight up to Jackson’s bedroom and the mom would go home. That is not normal. Anyone defending Jackson has to ignore dozens of inconvenient red flags like this one, and for what? What is to be gained by defending what at a minimum is egregiously inappropriate behavior? Why would someone extend this much effort to defend a celebrity they don’t know and have never met? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/104 "2019-03-04T15:14:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You have 34 posts (#2 has 8) in a thread defending a known pedophile who fled the country to avoid a trial about his pedophilia. This issue matters more to you than maybe you realize. Please don’t try to read my mind. It isn’t particulary important to me. This is just a discussion. And those numbers mean nothing. One reason their numbers are lower is that I have raised issues and asked questions that no one has bothered to respond to. But especially don’t put words in my mouth. _Nowhere_ in this thread or any other, I have I defended Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/105 "2019-03-04T15:19:46Z")
When you made that statement, you were responsible for 30% of this threads activity. I don’t need to read minds when I can both read and do math at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/106 "2019-03-04T15:20:54Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Combining these recent, more direct, accusations with the closeness and explicitness of the books removes most of the doubt in my mind. I now feel free to not doubt his guilt. Have you seen what’s in the books, other than a few images? If so and they are online, please point me to them. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/107 "2019-03-04T15:22:18Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > When you made that statement, you were responsible for 30% of this threads activity. I don’t need to read minds when I can both read and do math at the same time. Fine. Walk around wrong, then. I really dont care what you think you know. But prove you can read. Go back and find where I defended Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/108 "2019-03-04T15:25:15Z")
I know what I read and can calculate. When I am told “this topic means nothing to me” by the poster responsible for 34.57% of this threads current activity, I know there is something not right here. Sort of like when I saw MJ dangle his very own child off a hotel balcony, I knew there’s something not right _there_ either. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/109 "2019-03-04T15:50:14Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I know what I read and can calculate. When I am told “this topic means nothing to me” by the poster responsible for 34.57% of this threads current activity, I know there is something not right here. > > Sort of like when I saw MJ dangle his very own child off a hotel balcony, I knew there’s something not right _there_ either. John, c’mon. Maybe 1. I’m bored. 2. I’m just a troll. 3. Others are so uninteresred that I look overly interested by comparison. 4. If say three people respond to a post I make, I feel I should respond to each. Their counts go up by one, but mine goes up by three. The point being, you cannot know for sure just based on those numbers. I think you are seeing what you want to see. For the record, its a combo of 1 and 4…and I didnt say what you just quoted. I said not all that important. Big difference ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/110 "2019-03-04T15:58:02Z")
You’ve been bored for a month? So bored you said “I’m going to spend a month on the SDMB defending a pedophile”? Appreciate ya’ admitting you’re a bored-so-I’m-going-to-rile-up-people-with-bullshit variety of troll, however. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/111 "2019-03-04T16:02:32Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You’ve been bored for a month? So bored you said “I’m going to spend a month on the SDMB defending a pedophile”? > > Appreciate ya’ admitting you’re a bored-so-I’m-going-to-rile-up-people-with-bullshit variety of troll, however. 🙂 Once again you put words in my mouth. I did not defend Jackson. As of now I’ve got nothing more to say to you. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/112 "2019-03-04T16:04:41Z")
Thanks be to God… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/113 "2019-03-04T16:14:14Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Read my post again. I clearly referred to the first three paragraphs by the website author. Why do I have to point this out? Anyway, show me a reference that supports anything the author says there. If you can’t, I stick by my statement. The point being, take actual evidence at face value, but unsupported conjecture with a healthy dose of skepticism, and don’t be wowed by the authoritative tone of a statement that is not supported. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You don’t want evidence. You just want to argue. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Anither mind reader. ������ LOL. At least s/he finally admitted it. > [@](#): > > John, c’mon. Maybe > > 1. I’m bored. > 2. I’m just a troll. > 3. Others are so uninteresred that I look overly interested by comparison. > 4. If say three people respond to a post I make, I feel I should respond to each. Their counts go up by one, but mine goes up by three. > > The point being, you cannot know for sure just based on those numbers. I think you are seeing what you want to see. > > For the record, its a combo of 1 and 4…and I didnt say what you just quoted. I said not all that important. Big difference ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/114 "2019-03-04T16:36:15Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/115 "2019-03-04T17:13:16Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I think you are seeing what you want to see. That’s some quality Irony, there! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/116 "2019-03-04T17:39:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I have always loved MJ’s music and believe he is an iconic legend of all time. If you called me a fan, I wouldn’t object. Over the years I’ve vacillated between thinking he was falsely accused by money grubbers to thinking he’d might have been inappropriate with a few kids. > > [This is how I feel about these latest revelations.](https://tenor.com/view/kanan-hedidthatshit-guilty-gif-9913714) > > People are free to insist on seeing him as innocent, but it’s obvious to me that this is the more unreasonable position. Grown men inviting little children of no relation into their beds is behavior that would sound all kinds of alarms if we were talking about Dude Bro down the street. But with MJ, people have been much too inclined to dub what would otherwise be a bright red flag as mere eccentricity. > > Also not surprised that the two accusers are coming out now as opposed to when MJ was alive. They have an easier chance of being believed without MJ’s damn near supernatural influence to overpower their voices. I don’t see this evidence as falsity as much as pragmatism. I’m sure the Move Too movement has helped too. Sharing his bed with boys is, as you said, a red flag. An even redder flag to me is the fact Jackson seemed to invite only the most attractive of boys to share his bed. There doesn’t appear to have been any ugly look boys amongst Jackson’s ‘sleepover’ favorites. That to me is very, very suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/117 "2019-03-04T17:43:42Z")
Hell, I never saw Bill Clinton’s cock in Monica Lewinski’s mouth, but I don’t doubt… despite protestations… that he did, in fact, “have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinski.” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/118 "2019-03-04T19:04:24Z")
One thing that struck me from the documentary was how cult-like it all seemed. It reminded me of the Netflix series Wild, Wild Country about the cult in Oregon. People lost their minds and now they can’t really remember why. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/119 "2019-03-04T19:33:20Z")
Well, I watched Part 1 of _Leaving Neverland_. It’s powerful because it’s simply the quiet, clear, slow, detailed story of what happened, told without comment, opinion or sensationalism. It’s totally riveting viewing. I felt sick by the end. It was even worse than I thought. I was left with an overwhelming feeling of cold, intense anger towards Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/120 "2019-03-04T19:52:44Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > That’s some quality Irony, there! 😃 I want to see evidence beyond alleged victim testimony of Jackson \* molesting\* children. Not owning books or sleeping in the same bed with them, or the like. And being that I’ve never said Jackson is innocent of child molestation, you too are wrong. I am not seeing what I want to see, because other than the fact that I hope he didnt do it for the simple reason that that means no child suffered, I have no vested interest in if he did or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=7)