# Leaving Neverland: Michael Jackson Documentary **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586 "2019-01-29T02:10:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/141 "2019-03-05T00:43:21Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > A somewhat clever way to avoid my question. Do you want to answer it? It’s obvious that I’m confident you would instantly believe your own child if they claimed abuse from someone like MJ; you wouldn’t first insist they provide some immensely difficult to obtain smoking gun before accepting their story. Otherwise there would be little point to be raising the hypothetical. Sorry the gocha ya ness flew over your head Why do I believe you’d believe your own kids? Because the vast majority of parents are not monsters who would play cold-hearted skeptic when their own kids have been hurt. It’s only easy to play that role when it’s _other_ people’s kids. Some of us don’t think this way, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/142 "2019-03-05T01:12:46Z")
The second half of the documentary is just starting on HBO. I notice they have it on at staggered times all evening; clearly this is a ratings winner for them. I did watch the first half last night. I’m one of those people who had never made up my mind one way or the other—‘he’s definitely guilty’ or ‘he’s definitely innocent’. This documentary hasn’t changed that, so far. (We’ll see what part 2 does.) Several questions arose for me about both the choices made by the documentary’s director, and about the statements made by the two accusers. My biggest problem was with a major discrepancy between the story told by Wade and the story told by Jimmy—a discrepancy that was not addressed at all in the documentary (so far). And that is that Jimmy’s story was of a ‘courtship’ of Jimmy’s entire family over months—MJ coming to their home repeatedly, all of them going to Hawaii, etc, with NO physical contact in all that time. When sexual stuff started, it started with ‘here’s how you masturbate’ with no touching. Only gradually was touching introduced, again, over a period of weeks. With Wade, the story was ‘_ **the first time** we were alone_ he did a multitude of sex acts to me and asked me to do a multitude of sex acts.’ As I understand it, sex offenders have recognizable patterns of conduct. But here, we are asked to believe in an entirely different M.O. coming from the same person. That inconsistency should have been addressed in the documentary. Another issue for me is that so far, certain problems with the testimony of the two men haven’t been mentioned: that they swore under oath that MJ had never touched them sexually, that there have been attempts to obtain money from MJ or his estate, etc. Perhaps these will be discussed in tonight’s installment. My general view is that all accusations of sexual misconduct must be heard fully, and that they should be investigated. So far, this documentary is falling short as “investigation.” We’ll see if that picture looks different with tonight’s portion. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/143 "2019-03-05T03:05:06Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The second half of the documentary is just starting on HBO. I notice they have it on at staggered times all evening; clearly this is a ratings winner for them. > > I did watch the first half last night. I’m one of those people who had never made up my mind one way or the other—‘he’s definitely guilty’ or ‘he’s definitely innocent’. > > This documentary hasn’t changed that, so far. (We’ll see what part 2 does.) Several questions arose for me about both the choices made by the documentary’s director, and about the statements made by the two accusers. > > My biggest problem was with a major discrepancy between the story told by Wade and the story told by Jimmy—a discrepancy that was not addressed at all in the documentary (so far). And that is that Jimmy’s story was of a ‘courtship’ of Jimmy’s entire family over months—MJ coming to their home repeatedly, all of them going to Hawaii, etc, with NO physical contact in all that time. When sexual stuff started, it started with ‘here’s how you masturbate’ with no touching. Only gradually was touching introduced, again, over a period of weeks. > > With Wade, the story was ‘_ **the first time** we were alone_ he did a multitude of sex acts to me and asked me to do a multitude of sex acts.’ > > As I understand it, sex offenders have recognizable patterns of conduct. But here, we are asked to believe in an entirely different M.O. coming from the same person. That inconsistency should have been addressed in the documentary. > > Another issue for me is that so far, certain problems with the testimony of the two men haven’t been mentioned: that they swore under oath that MJ had never touched them sexually, that there have been attempts to obtain money from MJ or his estate, etc. Perhaps these will be discussed in tonight’s installment. > My general view is that all accusations of sexual misconduct must be heard fully, and that they should be investigated. So far, this documentary is falling short as “investigation.” We’ll see if that picture looks different with tonight’s portion. Very interesting. I really don’t feel like watching all 4 hours so I will depend on the trustwory Dopers, as well as other reviews if I happen to see them, for opinions on both sides ot the documentary. Before this post, I was leaning heavily toward guilty. Sleeping with young boys does not prove molestation, neither does 2 men making accusations. nor does having non-pornographic books of young boys as well as gay porn, makng payoff to keep accusers quite. But putting them all together, it is hard for me to say he is innocent. Your post casts a little doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/144 "2019-03-05T03:10:07Z")
sorry, deleted duplicate post ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/145 "2019-03-05T03:41:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s obvious that I’m confident you would instantly believe your own child if they claimed abuse from someone like MJ; Why should it be obvious to me that you are confident of that? You took it upon yourself to offer me advice on how to determine whom I should or should not let my kid have a sleepover with. That doesn’t sound like you have confidence in my parenting abilities. > [@](#): > > Why do I believe you’d believe your own kids? Because the vast majority of parents are not monsters who would play cold-hearted skeptic when their own kids have been hurt. It’s only easy to play that role when it’s _other_ people’s kids. > > Some of us don’t think this way, though. Are you saying I am playing that cold-hearted skeptic? But I’ll leave that as a rhetorical unless you really want to answer, because someone suggested the doc should be the topic now, and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/146 "2019-03-05T03:49:45Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > The second half of the documentary is just starting on HBO. I notice they have it on at staggered times all evening; clearly this is a ratings winner for them. > > I did watch the first half last night. I’m one of those people who had never made up my mind one way or the other—‘he’s definitely guilty’ or ‘he’s definitely innocent’. > > This documentary hasn’t changed that, so far. (We’ll see what part 2 does.) Several questions arose for me about both the choices made by the documentary’s director, and about the statements made by the two accusers. > > My biggest problem was with a major discrepancy between the story told by Wade and the story told by Jimmy—a discrepancy that was not addressed at all in the documentary (so far). And that is that Jimmy’s story was of a ‘courtship’ of Jimmy’s entire family over months—MJ coming to their home repeatedly, all of them going to Hawaii, etc, with NO physical contact in all that time. When sexual stuff started, it started with ‘here’s how you masturbate’ with no touching. Only gradually was touching introduced, again, over a period of weeks. > > With Wade, the story was ‘_ **the first time** we were alone_ he did a multitude of sex acts to me and asked me to do a multitude of sex acts.’ > > As I understand it, sex offenders have recognizable patterns of conduct. But here, we are asked to believe in an entirely different M.O. coming from the same person. That inconsistency should have been addressed in the documentary. > > Another issue for me is that so far, certain problems with the testimony of the two men haven’t been mentioned: that they swore under oath that MJ had never touched them sexually, that there have been attempts to obtain money from MJ or his estate, etc. Perhaps these will be discussed in tonight’s installment. > My general view is that all accusations of sexual misconduct must be heard fully, and that they should be investigated. So far, this documentary is falling short as “investigation.” We’ll see if that picture looks different with tonight’s portion. Of course the discrepancy could be the result of one boy telling the truth about being molested and the other lying about it. I’m curious, does any know how many men have accused Michael Jackson of molesting them? Is it just the two boys in the documentary or are there more? Because after Jimmy Savile died there were hundreds of accusers coming forward about his behavior. If Michael Jackson was pedophile you think the same thing would have happened to him. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/147 "2019-03-05T04:01:26Z")
I just watched the first episode. Each man gave pretty extensive details about the alleged sexual molestation, as I had read they would. At times, they sounded believable to me, and at other times not so much. Bottom line, though, is that nothing they said in and of itself would make me change my mind as far as how I would vote in a trial. Details lend credence, but anyone can come up with them. If you have attempted to sue the MJ estate and were not successful, and have any hope of doing so later, you aren’t going to participate in a doc like this unless you have plenty of details at hand. To be clear, none of this means they definitely just made shit up, but it is something to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/148 "2019-03-05T04:02:01Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > No, I guess I haven’t really said what I would need. DNA, video, etc. Confessional letters or tapes by Jackson. Almost surely this would have been found by now. Do you expect that with every instance of molestation, or criminal accusation, or just Jackson? Because let me tell you, if those are your standards, we’d never convict anyone if those were the standards for a guilty verdict, and a lot of sick predators would be walking the street. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/149 "2019-03-05T04:13:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Do you expect that with every instance of molestation, or criminal accusation, or just Jackson? Because let me tell you, if those are your standards, we’d never convict anyone if those were the standards for a guilty verdict, and a lot of sick predators would be walking the street. I don’t _expect_ anything. You asked what it would take. That would do it. I really am tired of people putting words into my mouth or making unfounded implications about my posts. Please, can we just talk about the doc from now on? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/150 "2019-03-05T04:16:43Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > My biggest problem was with a major discrepancy between the story told by Wade and the story told by Jimmy—a discrepancy that was not addressed at all in the documentary (so far). And that is that Jimmy’s story was of a ‘courtship’ of Jimmy’s entire family over months—MJ coming to their home repeatedly, all of them going to Hawaii, etc, with NO physical contact in all that time. When sexual stuff started, it started with ‘here’s how you masturbate’ with no touching. Only gradually was touching introduced, again, over a period of weeks. > > With Wade, the story was ‘_ **the first time** we were alone_ he did a multitude of sex acts to me and asked me to do a multitude of sex acts.’ > > As I understand it, sex offenders have recognizable patterns of conduct. But here, we are asked to believe in an entirely different M.O. coming from the same person. That inconsistency should have been addressed in the documentary. So you say that an abuser must do the identical things with every single child he abuses over a period of many years, otherwise the stories can’t possibly be true? This is silly. This is just another creative excuse not to believe what you prefer not to believe. The abuse with Wade Robson was a several years later than that with James Safechuck. Safechuck was an early victim. My impression is that Jackson simply became more arrogant and blatant about the abuse over time. He began to realize that he could get away with abusing a boy right from the start, rather than going through an extended grooming process. And, in fact there _was_ a pattern to the abuse itself. It was only the grooming period that was greatly reduced. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/151 "2019-03-05T04:19:37Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I don’t _expect_ anything. You asked what it would take. That would do it. I really am tired of people putting words into my mouth or making unfounded implications about my posts. Please, can we just talk about the doc from now on? Okay, then, is that what it would take to convince you of anyone’s guilt, or just Jackson’s? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/152 "2019-03-05T04:21:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, then, is that what it would take to convince you of anyone’s guilt, or just Jackson’s? Not answering. Let’s talk about the doc. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/153 "2019-03-05T04:31:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, then, is that what it would take to convince you of anyone’s guilt, or just Jackson’s? > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Not answering. Let’s talk about the doc. I’m curious about this too. If you were on a jury, and listened to and witnessed heart wrenching evidence BUT there was no video, no DNA gathered, and certainly no confession, it _sounds_ like you would be pretty certain to acquit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/154 "2019-03-05T04:39:27Z")
**[Moderating]** > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > John, c’mon. Maybe > > 1. I’m bored. > 2. I’m just a troll. > 3. Others are so uninteresred that I look overly interested by comparison. > 4. If say three people respond to a post I make, I feel I should respond to each. Their counts go up by one, but mine goes up by three. > > The point being, you cannot know for sure just based on those numbers. I think you are seeing what you want to see. > > For the record, its a combo of 1 and 4…and I didnt say what you just quoted. I said not all that important. Big difference And maybe 1. This is a Warning for trolling. If you are uninterested in a thread, then don’t post in it. In fact, let me make that official, too: Do not post further in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/155 "2019-03-05T04:41:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I lurk on another board that has a large cadre of die-hard MJ defenders. They insist that MJ’s nature was gentle and innocent. His actions can’t be interpreted the same way we’d interpret a regular person’s, they say, because the harsh circumstances of his upbringing turned him into a permanent man-child. > > I don’t know about yall, but the “man-child” idea is not a satisfactory counterargument to the claim that he was pedophile. I would expect a pedo to portray himself as a child trapped in man’s body; it would be a rather convenient way to rationalize his own attraction to children. It also serves to cause other adults to let their guard down. > > Secondly, let’s assume that MJ _was_ was the emotional and mental equivalent to a boy. It’s unusual to find a boy who talks on and on about loving other children. I don’t know of any boy children that objectify their peers like that. MJ never talked about kids as if he saw himself as one. Yes, the idea that Jackson was a naive, fragile man-child who loved kids and simply got carried away is no longer tenable. The final impression is that he was a cold, callous abuser who used boys for his own sexual gratification and entertainment, and dropped them for new boys when he got tired of them. He cared nothing for the boys themselves, or any damage to them, no matter how over-the-top his declarations of love were. And he was well aware of how wrong and criminal his actions were. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/156 "2019-03-05T05:00:14Z")
It’s On Demand, so I’ll be watching both parts this week. I would think the whole “he’s so childlike!” actually works against him. A lot of child molestors don’t think what they’re doing is wrong – they think society is wrong. I don’t know if that’s exactly the case with Michael, but it’s definitely not a point in his favor. (His whole, “you’re ignorant!” did give me pause) One thing I remember from watching “Living With Michael Jackson” years ago was when he was sitting with that one kid, Gavin? They were cuddling together, Gavin had his head on Jackson’s shoulder, and they were holding hands. What teenage boy does that with an older man, even his father? That’s the kind of position you have with a lover, or a spouse. It was seriously creepy. (And sadly, I still like the guy’s music, at least his earlier stuff. ☹ It was part of my childhood.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/157 "2019-03-05T05:07:46Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > And, in fact there _was_ a pattern to the abuse itself. It was only the grooming period that was greatly reduced. That’s my thought too. I don’t think we can read much into the presence or absence of a pattern. If we review the course of our own romantic histories, are our chosen strategies and behaviors with our objects of desire set in stone? Or is there often variability, largely shaped by the circumstances of the moment, the individual we’re trying to attract, and what is going on our minds at the time? I’m thinking the latter, based on my own experiences and from what I know about other people. When sex is initiated is probably the most common thing that differs from relationship to relationship. A guy could wait months before putting moves on someone if he thinks he has to do a lot to work his way up to that, or he could wait mere hours if he doesn’t think that. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/158 "2019-03-05T05:29:59Z")
On the question of staff at Neverland enabling Jackson’s abuse (not covered in the documentary), [this article](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6724465/Michael-Jacksons-maid-breaks-silence-really-went-on.html) about a maid who cleaned Jackson’s room is interesting. > [@](#): > > The former maid says Jackson got away with the abuse for so many years because of the regime of fear and intimidation he ran. > > She claims Jackson’s private security team would issue death threats and intimidate staff and children to stay silent about what they saw in Neverland during the early 90s. > > And the King Of Pop himself issued threats to staff who questioned his behavior. 'I knew Michael very, very well, and I was told that what I know you just don’t say it, and that really concerned me. I was threatened by Michael when I took over his bedroom, so I was already scared with that and I was afraid for my family. At that point, I was thinking of my life and my family’s life; something could happen to me. > > ‘I was told by Michael’s bodyguards that they could hire a hit man to take me out, that they could have somebody slice my neck and you’d never find my body. So yeah, I was very concerned and it’s my life and I cared about my life.’ > > She continued: ‘Nobody knew what these bodyguards were, and everybody was afraid of them. They carried guns and they would tell you little things and pet their guns. These guys were wicked and scary.’ Nevertheless, she testified against him at the 2005 trial. > [@](#): > > McManus would often have to clean up after Jackson had boys over for long weekends. > > ‘I found underwear that were in the back of Michael’s main room and one of the closets and it was in the back of the filing cabinets,’ she recalls. 'They were very hard, and crunchy, and yellow, but I didn’t know who they belonged to. > > 'When I would go in to pick up Mr Jackson’s bedroom, many times when there were his special guests there, little boys, they were taking baths with him in his Jacuzzi. He had a Jacuzzi in the bedroom and I used to have to let the water out of the Jacuzzi, so I had to put hangers together in order to get to the middle of the Jacuzzi to let the water out. > > ‘But Michael would have his underwear floating in the water and the little boys’ underwear floating in the water together. If they weren’t floating in the water, they were outside on the floor around the Jacuzzi. So I would find stuff like that.’ > > She added: ‘With all the little boys he would hold their hands and kiss them. And they would fight for Michael’s love. It was a strange environment to watch.’ Another maid, Blanca Francia, testified at the 2005 trial that she saw Jackson showering naked with Wade Robson, and inappropriately fondling Macaulay Culkin. Her son, Jason, also testified that he was touched sexually by Jackson. Jackson reportedly paid a $2 million settlement over these accusations. Other people also spoke out: [The Neverland Insiders Who Spoke Out Against Michael Jackson](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-allegations-staff-friends-family) Jackson’s former business adviser Myung-Ho Lee said that many young boys stayed overnight in his room. “Michael is very vindictive if anybody tries to do anything about him … If he has the upper hand, he will destroy you.” Ralph Chacon, a former security guard of Jackson’s testified during the 2005 trial that he saw Jackson perform oral sex on a young boy, aged 9 or 10. Philippe and Stella Lemarque, a French couple who cooked at Neverland for nearly a year, witnessed Jackson “taking sexual advantage of young guests, specifically Macaulay Culkin”. During the 2005 trial, Philippe claimed that he witnessed one incident of inappropriate conduct upon delivering French fries to Jackson around 3 A.M. According to The Observer’s description of his testimony, “When he entered Jackson’s bedroom he saw [Jackson] and Culkin playing an arcade game with Jackson’s hand down the young boy’s underpants. ‘I was shocked. I almost dropped the French fries,’ Lemarque told the court.” ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/159 "2019-03-05T16:16:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **[Moderating]** > > And maybe > > 1. This is a Warning for trolling. > > If you are uninterested in a thread, then don’t post in it. In fact, let me make that official, too: Do not post further in this thread. I normally don’t comment on warnings, but I think this is a little unfair to single him out. Yes, the constant back and forth was a bit annoying, but other people in this thread were egging him on just as much as he was fighting back. Anyway, onto the doc, I’ve only seen part 1 (2 is tonight) but here’s my thought: I’m actually going to go to the opposite of a lot of people in this thread. No, I’m not saying I think he’s any more innocent or guilty than he is before, but I think he really was a completely fucked up man-child who had only vague conceptions that what he was doing was wrong. It was mentioned upthread and deserves to be said again: Joe Jackson is really the one to blame here. I don’t think a mincing boy-hungry predator would act towards the kids in-the-moment the way Michael did. I think MJ really thought he was in love with these boys and really thought this is what you do to show your love. I mean, you don’t spend hours and hours on the phone, spend untold millions of dollars in flights and hotels, send hundreds and hundreds of faxes (which also cost money) just because you’re targeting someone solely for sex. MJ _felt_ for these boys. He quickly fell out of love with the boys and replaced them…but I honestly don’t think he was malicious about it. I’m eager to see if part 2 changes my mind ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586/160 "2019-03-05T16:41:13Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I mean, you don’t spend hours and hours on the phone, spend untold millions of dollars in flights and hotels, send hundreds and hundreds of faxes (which also cost money) just because you’re targeting someone solely for sex. Sure, right. As a percentage of his net worth, poor ol’ MIchael Jackson probably actually spent less time and money on his targets than his fellow “Working Man’s” pedophiles (yeah, yeah, that’s right, PEDOS, don’t bother me with semantic nitpickls about “hebephiles” or other such high-falutin’ rott) like the dozens of “Assistant Manager at Outback Steakhouse” types who were featured each week on TV’s “To Catch A Predator” who come around to the FBI sting house sporting a 6 pack of Mike’s Hard Lemonaide, a teener of Sinaloan meth and a 1/2 empty bottle of anal lube. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-neverland-michael-jackson-documentary/828586.md?page=9)