# Leaving USA for someplace saner- easier said than done? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 6, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810 "2024-11-06T20:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/201 "2025-12-31T14:22:19Z")
> [@LouMa](#): > > US citizens are not accepted as clients by European banks and so on and so forth. This is an important point that I don’t think has been mentioned so far. The US government requires special bank reporting from foreign banks about the banking activity of US citizens abroad. Foreign banks have to comply with those reporting requirements or else they can’t conduct any transactions in the US. For many banks, the reporting requirements are so intrusive that it’s simpler just to deny services to Americans in their country. I have an acquaintance here in Canada who occupies a responsible position in his organization which would normally include signing authority for the organization’s banking matters. However, he is a dual citizen, Canadian and US. He has chosen not to have signing authority, because of the complications it would cause for his organization. Something to consider for Americans thinking about living abroad: will I be able to access local banking services? Just one indication that the US government does not trust its own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/202 "2025-12-31T14:31:36Z")
> [@Sooner](#): > > Mostly as a test run, wasn’t as peasant as I hoped. Maybe if you had claimed some noble blood in your family tree? 😉 _Sorry_… ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/203 "2025-12-31T14:37:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Just one indication that the US government does not trust its own citizens. Well, at least the feeling is mutual these days. For me, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/204 "2025-12-31T15:43:48Z")
Language differences are why I would favor an English speaking country. ---
**Author:** ![LouMa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/louma/32/19472_2.png) [@LouMa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouMa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/205 "2025-12-31T16:24:32Z")
@Dewey_Finn Good idea, but at least within Europe there would not be much choice. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/206 "2025-12-31T17:29:52Z")
Obviously, there are many other places in the world. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/207 "2025-12-31T21:26:40Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Language differences are why I would favor an English speaking country. In many western European nations, english as a second language is very common. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/208 "2025-12-31T22:31:35Z")
And as a tourist, that’s fine. But if you live there you really ought to learn the _first_ language of your neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2025, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/209 "2025-12-31T22:32:31Z")
I am aware of that but I wonder how much resentment one would experience for not speaking the primary language. As a resident you are likely to interact with people who don’t speak English. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/210 "2026-01-01T02:03:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And as a tourist, that’s fine. But if you live there you really ought to learn the _first_ language of your neighbors. Oh, I agree. But retirees moving there? I can see a need to have shopkeepers and such that they can talk to. But at least learn some basic conversation. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I am aware of that but I wonder how much resentment one would experience for not speaking the primary language. Interesting point. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/211 "2026-01-01T07:42:21Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I am aware of that but I wonder how much resentment one would experience for not speaking the primary language. May vary with the size of the community you wish to settle in. You could get by in a major city with an established reputation for tourism (but some at least are hostile to over-tourism); in a smaller rural community, where you have to interact regularly with the same people, it would entirely understandable if they started to think the worse of you for not making the effort to learn the language. What else would you be wanting to settle there for, if not to become part of the community? ---
**Author:** ![LouMa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/louma/32/19472_2.png) [@LouMa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouMa)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/212 "2026-01-01T19:52:36Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I am aware of that but I wonder how much resentment one would experience for not speaking the primary language. It is not so much a question of resentment. It’s more about how to cope with everyday life. Registering with the local authorities, for example, if you want to take up residence in a city. Interacting with a landlord: it’s usually very difficult to find a rental apartment, with hundreds of people often applying for a single apartment. How can you find your way around without any language skills? Buying a home is even more difficult, as it is very expensive and very bureaucratic. You need a notary, etc. Sometimes people are willing to speak English, but often they are not, and many cannot. As a tourist, you can somehow get by, but as an immigrant, you cannot get by without a profound knowledge of the language. You quickly become isolated. You may find a few expats from your own country, but social contact is very limited and not necessarily satisfactory. Without the language you are like a fish without water. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/213 "2026-01-01T19:53:59Z")
I don’t disagree with any of that. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/214 "2026-01-02T10:14:57Z")
We’d welcome a US citizen with his stash of US$ here in the third world - South Africa. The requirements for Permanent Residence are not very high, and while partly based on your bank account not too stringent. It will just take a while, the Visa to visit will be fast, but the Certificate of Permanent Residence has to wind its way through Home Affairs, a department of government, which by even our standards, is painfully inept and inefficient. Cape Town is one of the finest cities in the world in which to live. World class restaurants, exceptional health care, great scenery, extremely diverse culture. But… We do have a reputation for crime, though. But due to the apartheid Group Areas Act, most crime is perpetrated by poor people on poor people whose families who were forcibly moved. Into “townships” That said, I often go into Langa, the highest murder rate place in South Africa, as a charity volunteer, and feel safe. Sadly most serious crime here is domestic violence. No one wants to mug me, they want what I (my charity) can give to their community. We do, of course, have gang violence… like any poor community. But the gangsters, when I see them, just wave and smile. It is not as if I am stepping on their territory to donate dog food to the needy and transport animals in need to the free clinic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/215 "2026-01-02T13:50:05Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Cape Town is one of the finest cities in the world in which to live. World class restaurants, exceptional health care, great scenery, extremely diverse culture. How does the crime rate in Cape Town compare to the crime rate in New York City? Does anyone know how to do that comparison? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/216 "2026-01-02T14:14:26Z")
This site has a list of world cities indexed by crime stats: > **[Crime Index](https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_current.jsp)** If you click into a specific city you get more details, and comments. Cape Town compares with Detroit, and New York City compares with Aukland, NZ. Note: the “data” is based on perceptions of visitors, so take with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![MacDoc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/macdoc/32/18696_2.png) [@MacDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacDoc)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2026, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/217 "2026-01-03T00:35:53Z")
I don’t beleive for a second Detroit and Cape Town are comparable even for crime. It’s despicable to even suggest it. Detroit is a failed city and a national disgrace for the US. 🤬 Capetown is one of the more beautiful/liveable cities in the world and never once did I feel unsafe. Just avoid the townships. Small towns in the Western Cape like Montagu are wonderful places to retire with low cost of living and a favourable exchange rate. > **[Montagu, South Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montagu,_South_Africa)** > > Montagu is a town in the Western Cape province of South Africa, about 180 kilometres (110 mi) from Cape Town in the Western Little Karoo. > The town is named after former secretary of the Cape Colony, John Montagu, but was once known as Agter Cogman's Kloof, Cogman's Kloof linking the town and railway station. It is situated at the confluence of the Keisie and Kingna rivers. > Montagu was founded on the farm "Uitvlugt" in 1851, and is known for its hot mineral springs and scenic mountains. It i... Many memorable months spent each year for four years. No car, bicycle was fine and never a hint of fear except crossing the street on a Friday night ( pay day ) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2026, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/218 "2026-01-03T01:27:01Z")
> [@MacDoc](#): > > Detroit is a failed city and a national disgrace for the US. 🤬 Speak for yourself. > **[‘It’s buzzing here’: Detroit’s revival takes shape after decades of decay](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/04/detroit-revitalization)** > > The tech scene is booming in the US’s largest Black-majority city, with foreign investment and a recent population boost > [@puzzlegal](#): > > How does the crime rate in Cape Town compare to the crime rate in New York City? Does anyone know how to do that comparison? IDK about overall crime rate, but the homicide rate in Cape Town is double the homicide rate in Detroit. And an order of magnitude higher than the homicide rate in NYC: > **[List of cities by homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate)** > > The following article is a list of cities sorted by homicide rates in the world, excluding active war zones. The homicide rate of a city is an imprecise tool for comparison, as the population within city borders may not best represent an urban or metropolitan area with varying rates in different areas. > The following 50 cities have the highest homicide rates in the world of all cities not at war, with a population of at least 300,000 people. For cities without data prior to 2023 or 2024, figu... Not sure why I’d want “data” based on the “perceptions” of visitors… (re: @snowthx’s cite). ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2026, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/219 "2026-01-03T02:28:12Z")
Yeah, after sharing that it doesn’t really pass muster. I wish it could be removed. I need to do better cites. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2026, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810/220 "2026-01-03T14:10:52Z")
To make a very long story short, if you can document direct descent from someone born in what is now Canada to the satisfaction of IRCC, and you were born before December 15, 2025, you are now Canadian. Quebec baptismal certificates are fine for this purpose in most cases, as Quebec did not have complete civil birth registration until the 1990s. It took me something like 100 pages of genealogical documentation to prove that my Canada-born grandmother was, in fact, my grandmother, because at first glance the name on her birth certificate had nothing to do with her name on my father’s birth certificate (it’s a long story with many twists and turns). But I was successful in the end and am now the proud holder of a Canadian passport, and am currently waiting for my husband **Tom\_Scud’s** Canadian permanent residency application to be processed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leaving-usa-for-someplace-saner-easier-said-than-done/1009810.md?page=12)