# LeBron to return to Cleveland **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 11, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875 "2014-07-11T17:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/61 "2014-07-12T01:08:41Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I didn’t say Allen was a replacement. The point was that he did basically everything Miller did but better, and more often. It’s a stretch to say they needed both, and given the costs, the decision to drop Miller was sensible. Doing so certainly doesn’t make them cheap. He couldn’t play forward, which is what they really needed, a competent forward who could shoot to play beside LeBron. Battier aged in dog years, Haslem can’t score, Beasley stayed nailed to the bench, and that’s how you ended up with Rashard Lewis as the second forward. Speaking of, that’s where Miami really let the side down, setting aside any issues of cheapness. Their big acquisitions this season were Beasley and Oden, and neither one was able to help the team at all. Going 0-for-2 like that, with a roster this old, is death. Making the Finals at all was just a function of the woeful state of the East. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/62 "2014-07-12T01:21:01Z")
By the way it’s pretty hard to argue the Heat couldn’t have used Miller since he shot substantially better than Allen did this year, Allen being 38 and all. He finally started to decline. Right or wrong, the point is that the amnesty had obvious costs, as it will when you decide you want to shed salary so badly that you let a player leave for nothing. [The cost was obvious at the time, not just in hindsight, since Pat Riley said flat-out that he did not want to amnesty Miller about a week before the deed was done.](http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/9482980/miami-heat-waive-mike-miller-amnesty-clause) As far as impact free agents… for four years the Heat mostly surrounded James-Wade-Bosh with useful scrap. That worked pretty well but started to fail this year: Battier and Allen and Haslem got old, Rashard Lewis didn’t contribute much, and Beasley and Oden added nothing. There was speculation this year that they wanted to make a bigger addition because they saw how much deeper the Spurs were, but they didn’t do it. They had no shot at Lowry and Gortat or Deng and even Pau Gasol at a discount seemed like a longshot. Wade and Bosh were going to give up some money here, but it was plain they were not surrendering enough for the team to add a major piece. They didn’t do it the last few season either, even when they knew what those guys were making. It was supposed to be a big deal that they picked up Josh McRoberts and Danny Granger this offseason, and nobody was impressed. If Mikhail Prokhorov (net worth of $10.9 billion, according to Wikipedia) can say “fuck the luxury tax, I want a championship” so can Micky Arison ($6.3 billion). It’s his choice not to, and money talks. After the Big Three opted out the Heat locked themselves into a very specific spending level and they were not going to go past it no matter what. They could’ve gone farther into the luxury tax and chose not to. Make no mistake: NBA owners are making money hand over fist these days and teams will only get more profitable (new TV deal in two years). The Heat’s priorities were clear. I’m just saying they had choices. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/63 "2014-07-12T02:30:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Their shooting in 2012-13 was very similar and they were essentially identical from three-point range. Except that Allen made twice as many (73 vs 139) :dubious: > [@Marley23](#): > > Miller is nobody’s idea of an all-world defender, but he is less of a liability than Allen. That does count for something. He actually isn’t less of a liability. Look at the stats. Especially given his condition at the time, the idea that he would improve this last season was unknowable and certainly not expected. > [@Marley23](#): > > They were certainly better with both, and I hope I don’t need a cite for that. I can’t find offensive efficiency numbers, but it goes without saying the Heat were much better in 12-13 than they were this past season in the regular season and the playoffs. That fact that they were better with both is more than likely a coincidence. Miller is certainly not responsible for much of the difference. > [@Marley23](#): > > A few different choices in spending could’ve helped the Heat three-peat, in which case LeBron wouldn’t have left. He could’ve gone back to Cleveland four or five years from now and gotten similar plaudits. You have no idea whether he would have left anyway. That said, please NAME a few free agents they could have gotten? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > He couldn’t play forward, which is what they really needed, a competent forward who could shoot to play beside LeBron. Battier aged in dog years, Haslem can’t score, Beasley stayed nailed to the bench, and that’s how you ended up with Rashard Lewis as the second forward. Which again is ex post facto. Yes, we all know it didn’t work out. The question was what people were thinking at the time. The Heat started last season as the presumptive favorites to win it all. It was fairly even money for them to win in the finals against the Spurs. > [@Marley23](#): > > Right or wrong, the point is that the amnesty had obvious costs, as it will when you decide you want to shed salary so badly that you let a player leave for nothing. [The cost was obvious at the time, not just in hindsight, since Pat Riley said flat-out that he did not want to amnesty Miller about a week before the deed was done.](http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/9482980/miami-heat-waive-mike-miller-amnesty-clause) As far as impact free agents… for four years the Heat mostly surrounded James-Wade-Bosh with useful scrap. That “useful scrap” got them 2 rings in 4 years and 4 finals appearances. It is basically what you have to do when you have multiple max players on your team. > [@Marley23](#): > > There was speculation this year that they wanted to make a bigger addition because they saw how much deeper the Spurs were, but they didn’t do it. They could not do it. Who would they have signed, and how would they have paid them? The NBA has a soft cap, but that doesn’t mean you can pay anyone anything so long as you don’t mind the luxury tax. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/64 "2014-07-12T02:51:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Except that Allen made twice as many (73 vs 139) :dubious: Yes, he played more and he played in a different (better) offense. And he missed far more shots. Since that was his entire job, that was a problem. > [@](#): > > He actually isn’t less of a liability. Look at the stats. Defensively? Yes, Allen is less useful. > [@](#): > > Especially given his condition at the time, the idea that he would improve this last season was unknowable and certainly not expected. It was widely reported that he was finally healthy during the previous year’s playoffs. > [@](#): > > That fact that they were better with both is more than likely a coincidence. Your say-so is not enough to convince me. > [@](#): > > You have no idea whether he would have left anyway. I disagree, and more to the point I’ve offered some detailed reasoning. > [@](#): > > That said, please NAME a few free agents they could have gotten? You realize the entire league plays on contracts of no more than five years, right? Most of the league’s secondary players probably changed teams over the last four years. They _had_ Patrick Beverly and let him go. I don’t think they could have landed another superstar, but they could have shelled out some more for the right role players. Look at what the Spurs did with Boris Diaw and Danny Green and Marco Belinelli. > [@](#): > > The question was what people were thinking at the time. They were thinking the Heat had made themselves a weaker basketball team. Still a very good one, yes. But not as good. > [@](#): > > That “useful scrap” got them 2 rings in 4 years and 4 finals appearances. You keep repeating things I’ve already said as if I didn’t know them. You don’t have to do that. > [@](#): > > It is basically what you have to do when you have multiple max players on your team. The Rockets would have had more than scrap around a core of Bosh and Harden and Howard, and the Cavs will have more than scrap around LeBron and Kyrie and Love if that works out. The Heat did not have that this year. It’s true that this is partly a function of the Heat’s business model - the team was built through free agency instead of the draft, so they weren’t getting great value from young players. But it’s also a function of their spending priorities. > [@](#): > > The NBA has a soft cap, but that doesn’t mean you can pay anyone anything so long as you don’t mind the luxury tax. As a matter of fact that’s exactly what it means. The Nets are doing it. If you don’t mind the luxury tax payments and the loss of some exceptions, you can pay your team as much as you want. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/65 "2014-07-12T03:54:18Z")
Apparently sure that Mike Miller is skipping town, Memphis has signed Vince Carter away from Dallas for 3 years/$12 million. What an interesting career Carter has had. He’s still a useful reserve long after most people would’ve predicted that he would be washed up. Elsewhere the Bulls are trying hard to get Pau Gasol, but they’d really like to be able to trade Boozer for him. It doesn’t sound likely, so the question is if he goes there or to the Spurs. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/66 "2014-07-12T04:32:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, he played more and he played in a different (better) offense. And he missed far more shots. Since that was his entire job, that was a problem. This was in 2012 when they were both playing for the Heat. Allen played 20 more games and had nearly double the 3 pointers while having about the same percentage. At that juncture, why would Miami spend $40mm to keep Miller given he was a inferior and redundant part? > [@Marley23](#): > > Defensively? Yes, Allen is less useful. By what measure? They both are liabilities. Not only did Allen have better defensive win share last year, but he had similar defensive states while they both played on the Heat. In 2012, Allen had 3.8 rebounds, 1.2 steals, and .3 blocks per 36 minutes. Miller had 6.3, .8, and .2 respectively. Hardly a difference and neither are good defenders at this point. > [@Marley23](#): > > It was widely reported that he was finally healthy during the previous year’s playoffs. It was also widely known that he is incredibly injury prone and 34 years old. The idea that anyone expected him to play 82 games when he had only done that once before is nonsense. There is a reason he is basically making the league minimum now. He is NOT an impact player at this point. Either way, this isn’t even worth discussing. The Heat with Miller are not much better than without him. That would not have make the series with the Spurs any closer. > [@Marley23](#): > > Your say-so is not enough to convince me. Find any reputable analyst that points to Miller as a key factor in their collapse in the finals. The stats back me up. Look at his winshare. Besides, if Miller is so impactful why did Memphis lose 6 more games with him on the team than the year before? > [@Marley23](#): > > I disagree, and more to the point I’ve offered some detailed reasoning. Based on nothing. James said he always planned to finish his career in Cleveland. There is no evidence either way what he would have done had they won. > [@Marley23](#): > > You realize the entire league plays on contracts of no more than five years, right? Most of the league’s secondary players probably changed teams over the last four years. They _had_ Patrick Beverly and let him go. I don’t think they could have landed another superstar, but they could have shelled out some more for the right role players. Look at what the Spurs did with Boris Diaw and Danny Green and Marco Belinelli. The Spurs have just picked well. Again, please point out 5 free agent the Heat could have signed? > [@Marley23](#): > > The Rockets would have had more than scrap around a core of Bosh and Harden and Howard, and the Cavs will have more than scrap around LeBron and Kyrie and Love if that works out. Not really, and when they do, it’s usually because one of the players is not on a veteran max contract. If the rockets got Bosh, they would have had basically nothing around them. They traded Asik, and Parsons. What other great players do they have? > [@Marley23](#): > > The Heat did not have that this year. It’s true that this is partly a function of the Heat’s business model - the team was built through free agency instead of the draft, so they weren’t getting great value from young players. But it’s also a function of their spending priorities. Prudent spending doesn’t mean cheap. The Heat paid tens of million in luxury taxes already. Your comment was basically indefensible. Then you compounded it by assuming that’s why Lebron left with zero evidence to back it up. > [@Marley23](#): > > As a matter of fact that’s exactly what it means. The Nets are doing it. If you don’t mind the luxury tax payments and the loss of some exceptions, you can pay your team as much as you want. This is not correct. The NBA imposes a hard cap in some cases. The Heat was one case. > [@](#): > > Now, with Monday’s agreements with Charlotte Hornets free-agent forward Josh McRoberts and Los Angeles Clippers free-agent swingman Danny Granger, the Heat, with a return of their Big Three core, will know exactly where their payroll can max out. > > Because the Heat plan to use the $5.3 million mid-level exception to sign McRoberts and the $2.1 million bi-annual exception for Granger, and because of their position against the NBA luxury tax, the Heat will become locked into a hard cap should James, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade return. > > It would not be the first time a team has become capped since the 2011 CBA, with the NBA champion San Antonio Spurs, Golden State Warriors, Clippers and Pacers all operating under a hard cap this past season. Also [here](http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/sports/Heat-Closing-in-On-LeBron--Bosh-266136891.html): > [@](#): > > The moves on Monday left the Heat with a $2.2 million trade exception along with the possibility of trading point guard Norris Cole, who is owed $2 million next season. It also placed a hard salary cap on the Heat of $81 million heading into the 2014-2015 season. The Nets were able to blow past the cap because (IIRC) they traded for people and resigned their own players under new deals, used MLE and Bird rights. See [here](http://midlevelexceptional.com/2014/07/02/nbas-hard-cap-introduction/): > [@](#): > > When they worked out this change, it was apparent that a system with this structure would need a way of preventing teams from using the mechanisms available to teams under the apron and then going over the apron to effectively game the system. The solution the league and the NBAPA came up with was that the use of any one of the three tools listed above — higher MLE, BAE, or sign-and-trade — triggers hard cap at the apron for that franchise for the remainder of that league year (until the next June 30, basically). That means the team in question cannot have a cap number over the apron for any reason whatsoever — no wiggle room for a minimum salary guy or to replace an injured player. > > In the last few years, we have seen this affect a few different franchises in material ways. Arguably the most notable example came last year when the Golden State Warriors cleared the space to sign Andre Iguodala outright but then negotiated with Denver to make his acquisition a sign and trade. Structuring the deal that way gave the Warriors additional flexibility because they did not have to renounce their MLE and other exceptions, but it also put the hard cap on the team for the entire 2013-14 season. So, no, you cannot just sign any guy for any amount you want. Do you honestly think a guy like Arison, who (again) has already paid tens of million in taxes would blush at paying a bit more if he could secure another impact player? Do you honestly think a great GM like Riley hasn’t been looking to improve their roster in ways you and I cannot see? The idea that the Heat were being cheap is (again) laughably foolish. the short response is that we have tons of evidence that Riley is great at his job, and that Arison is not afraid to spend money. The supposition that they were especially ineffective at attracting free agents due to being cheap or unwise is completely without merit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/67 "2014-07-12T05:14:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This was in 2012 when they were both playing for the Heat. Allen played 20 more games and had nearly double the 3 pointers while having about the same percentage. At that juncture, why would Miami spend $40mm to keep Miller given he was a inferior and redundant part? From where do you get this $40 million number? It’s less than half that. By waiving him they cut their tax bill to about $17 million from $33 million. > [@](#): > > By what measure? By the measure that he’s a larger guy who can guard players Ray Allen can’t. > [@](#): > > It was also widely known that he is incredibly injury prone and 34 years old. That’d be four years younger than the guy who “replaced” him. > [@](#): > > The idea that anyone expected him to play 82 games when he had only done that once before is nonsense. He was expected to be in better health, and he was. > [@](#): > > There is a reason he is basically making the league minimum now. Yes, there is a reason: the Heat are paying him about $6 million a year. They paid him that last year when he played for Memphis, and they will pay him about $6 million this year to play for Cleveland. That’s how amnesty works: his contract no longer counts against the cap, but they still have to pay him. > [@](#): > > Besides, if Miller is so impactful why did Memphis lose 6 more games with him on the team than the year before? Because Marc Gasol missed a third of the season. Details! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > There is no evidence either way what he would have done had they won. Do you understand what reasoning is or how it works? I’m starting to worry. > [@](#): > > Again, please point out 5 free agent the Heat could have signed? I’m not sure why this isn’t sinking in. Dozens of role players move around every year. The Heat wanted to go after guys like Gortat and Lowry and Deng this year but didn’t get it done. > [@](#): > > If the rockets got Bosh, they would have had basically nothing around them. They traded Asik, and Parsons. What other great players do they have? They traded Asik and Lin, and those were salary dumps. They would have had Parsons and Beverly and Jones to start with, which is the makings of a very solid supporting cast. > [@](#): > > Then you compounded it by assuming that’s why Lebron left with zero evidence to back it up. I said repeatedly that it was one factor. You are strawmanning. > [@](#): > > This is not correct. The NBA imposes a hard cap in some cases. The Heat was one case. I already explained the Heat’s situation this year: they _chose_ to lock themselves into the $80.7 million limit by signing Roberts to a particular mid-level exception. They did not have to do that. It was their way of announcing a limit on their spending and trying to get Wade and Bosh to compromise on salary. It failed. > [@](#): > > Do you honestly think a guy like Arison, who (again) has already paid tens of million in taxes would blush at paying a bit more if he could secure another impact player? He just did. The Heat looked at Marvin Williams and couldn’t get him. They couldn’t even get a commitment from Anthony Morrow. > [@](#): > > Do you honestly think a great GM like Riley hasn’t been looking to improve their roster in ways you and I cannot see? The idea that the Heat were being cheap is (again) laughably foolish. What’s laughable is your habit of arguing at great length and great vehemence with things I specifically didn’t say. Here’s a short list: this is the only reason LeBron left, Pat Riley is bad at his job, the Heat aren’t trying to win, the Heat don’t want to get better. I probably missed a few. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/68 "2014-07-12T11:12:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > One element that shouldn’t be lost in this, including the discussion about the appeal of going back to Cleveland, is how Miami cost themselves LeBron by getting cheap. I don’t buy this for a second, and I believe you are way overthinking it. Here’s how I see it: As soon as LeBron realised\* what a huge PR hit he (and his potential GOAT legacy) took from “The Decision”, he was determined to come back to the Cavs (and he will finish his career there, mark my words) as soon as free agency allowed, if: (1) He won at least one ring in Miami; and (2) Dan Gilbert would kiss his ring and basically beg him to come back. That’s it. All the talk of the aging supporting cast in Miami and the young stars in Cleveland, yadda yadda, is just chatter to fill blog posts and sports talk radio. It’s all irrelevant to what actually happened, which was more or less set in stone two years ago, when the Heat finished off the Thunder behind Finals MVP LeBron’s triple double. \*Or this may have been his intention all along, even before the whole thing blew up in his face: go to Miami for four years (kind of like “going off to college” as he said in his great SI letter), get a ring or three, then come back home and sail off into the sunset as the hometown hero, even if he never won any more titles. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/69 "2014-07-12T13:12:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Which again is ex post facto. Yes, we all know it didn’t work out. The question was what people were thinking at the time. The Heat started last season as the presumptive favorites to win it all. It was fairly even money for them to win in the finals against the Spurs. Yes and no, Battier wasn’t expected to completely fall apart the way he did, but the signings of a defense-averse head case off the waiver wire, and a guy who hadn’t played in over three years, were rightly remarked on as being very risky moves. Miller was certainly closer to a sure thing than Beasley and Oden were. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/70 "2014-07-12T13:21:58Z")
Miller is about to sign with Cleveland, if that doesn’t tell you it was a mistake to let him go i don’t know what will. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/71 "2014-07-12T14:25:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > From where do you get this $40 million number? It’s less than half that. By waiving him they cut their tax bill to about $17 million from $33 million. Wrong [again](http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-07-16/sports/sfl-miami-heat-mike-miller-s071113_1_nba-amnesty-deadline-mike-miller-oklahoma-city-thunder): > [@](#): > > By waiving Miller and his $6.2 million contract for next season, the Heat realize a savings of $17 million on the NBA’s luxury tax for this coming season, with that savings on Miller to rise to upward of $40 million over the next two seasons, with the tax becoming even more punitive for the 2014-15 payroll. > > Miller said he appreciated the economics. > > “You knew that with this team, the further they got down the line, the more and more expensive it was going to be to keep this team together. And you subtract the variables of the Big Three and who’s next in line?” said Miller, who, until Tuesday, had the fourth-highest salary on the roster beyond James, Bosh and Wade. Did you even bother googling this? > [@Marley23](#): > > By the measure that he’s a larger guy who can guard players Ray Allen can’t. They don’t guard the same people generally. Either way, the stats don’t lie. He is not a better defender by most measures and neither of them are truly impact players at this moment. > [@Marley23](#): > > That’d be four years younger than the guy who “replaced” him. Replaced was your word, no need to put it in quotes. Once again, I didn’t say Miller was replaced by Allen. I said Allen did/does what he does better. No need to pay that much for a guy that was redundant and on the decline. > [@Marley23](#): > > Because Marc Gasol missed a third of the season. Details! :rolleyes: As did Wade, yet that reason is compelling for the drop in wins in Memphis, but not Miami? You are completely full of shit. This idea that looking at win total and ascribing it to one marginal player makes sense is just nonsense. > [@Marley23](#): > > Do you understand what reasoning is or how it works? I’m starting to worry. Please list the known reasons and the evidence substantiating those claims for why Lebron left, but would not have left if they have won another championship? Not just your wild speculation based on nothing. > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure why this isn’t sinking in. Dozens of role players move around every year. The Heat wanted to go after guys like Gortat and Lowry and Deng this year but didn’t get it done. Once again, _didn’t_ get it done doesn’t mean didn’t want to get it done, or were being cheap. Even putting aside the fact that not everyone wants to play for Miami or with James, the idea that they can just woo any free agent at any price is demonstrably false. > [@Marley23](#): > > They traded Asik and Lin, and those were salary dumps. They would have had Parsons and Beverly and Jones to start with, which is the makings of a very solid supporting cast. If they had gotten Bosh, the would not (and still [may not](http://houseofhouston.com/2014/07/11/houston-rockets-mulling-chandler-parsons/)) match Parsons Dallas offer. A supporting cast of Beverly and not much else is not any better than what Miami had. > [@Marley23](#): > > I said repeatedly that it was one factor. You are strawmanning. No, I am saying it was likely not a factor at all because the Heat being cheap is nonsense. Again, the Heat spent tens of millions in taxes. Your argument is basically that they should have spent even more under this nebulous idea that they _could_ have gotten better players. All this despite pretty clear evidence that they actually got decent role players to actually sign with them. Despite the evidence that the Heat were the best team in the NBA over the last 4 years by most measures. Despite all that, they were cheap and that is why Lebron left. :dubious: > [@Marley23](#): > > I already explained the Heat’s situation this year: they _chose_ to lock themselves into the $80.7 million limit by signing Roberts to a particular mid-level exception. They did not have to do that. It was their way of announcing a limit on their spending and trying to get Wade and Bosh to compromise on salary. It failed. Oh bullshit. You are moving the goalposts. You said teams can sign anyone they want to whatever amount they want. That is demonstrably false. Now you are saying essentially overpaying Roberts by using the MLE drove Lebron away. Just pure rank speculation. > [@Marley23](#): > > He just did. The Heat looked at Marvin Williams and couldn’t get him. They couldn’t even get a commitment from Anthony Morrow. Based on them being cheap or just not getting done? Because you have alleged the former based on the latter happening. Surely Riley knew his numbers and their expectation before he pitched to those players. > [@Marley23](#): > > What’s laughable is your habit of arguing at great length and great vehemence with things I specifically didn’t say. You implied all of those things, but let’s just address what you explicitly said aside from the all the factually incorrect statements. Please cite the evidence that the Heat were cheap, and that said cheapness contributed at all to Lebron leaving? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/72 "2014-07-12T14:39:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes and no, Battier wasn’t expected to completely fall apart the way he did, but the signings of a defense-averse head case off the waiver wire, and a guy who hadn’t played in over three years, were rightly remarked on as being very risky moves. Miller was certainly closer to a sure thing than Beasley and Oden were. Sure he is. Again, I am not saying Miller was a bad player or a bad fit. The issue is whether he was worth $40mm. He is not, and even he has acknowledged that. The main point was the accusation that the Heat were being cheap stupid. It’s like arguing a guy who bought a $500mm yacht is being cheap if he declined to buy a billion dollar one. > [@DigitalC](#): > > Miller is about to sign with Cleveland, if that doesn’t tell you it was a mistake to let him go i don’t know what will. Is Cleveland gonna pay him that much? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/73 "2014-07-12T15:43:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I already explained the Heat’s situation this year: they _chose_ to lock themselves into the $80.7 million limit by signing Roberts to a particular mid-level exception. They did not have to do that. It was their way of announcing a limit on their spending and trying to get Wade and Bosh to compromise on salary. It failed. > [@](#): > > As team insiders have maintained for months, James isn’t interested in reducing his salary from $20.6 next season and $22.1 million in 2015-16 just so that team owner Micky Arison can avoid paying luxury taxes. As they say, been there, done that and all it got James was second place. > > Bosh, who makes identical money to James, and Wade, who makes slightly less, at around $41.5 million for the next two seasons, also don’t want to rework their deals solely to give Arison another tax break. They want the money put to good use, meaning adding talent so that Miami can return to the Finals for a fifth straight season. No team has done that since the Red Auerbach-led Celtics of the 1960s. > [@](#): > > “I have to admit, we’ve been lucky,” Riley told me before the A/C system in AT&T Center crashed in the Game 1 fiasco when James was KO’d by severe leg cramps. “And yeah, we’ve got some great players, too.” > > But only James lived up to his billing in the Finals. Wade fell off a cliff in the series and his future is something that concerns James and Riley. Bosh was also ineffective in the last three blowout losses, even when he had matchups in his favor. > > In addition, the Heat bench proved far too thin to secure the three-peat. But it became that way because Riley was under orders from the top to make moves to save Arison from taking a $15 million luxury tax hit. So when the Heat allowed Mike Miller to leave after last season, that was costly, especially with Wade’s gimpy knees and sudden decline. > **[It comes down to what dollars make sense for LeBron James and Heat after NBA...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2014/06/17/it-comes-down-to-what-dollars-make-sense-for-lebron-james-and-heat-after-nba-finals-loss-to-tim-duncans-spurs/)** > > SAN ANTONIO — After suffering a humiliating Finals defeat that knocked him off the NBA throne, LeBron James would do well to remember where the Miami Heat’s two-year reign ended. San An… I agree with **Marley**. Micky Arison essentially announced “This is what I’m spending, you guys (LeBron, Bosh, Wade) figure out how to make the numbers work.” I think LeBron saw next season playing out like this season, with him expected to bear a heavy load to cover for Wade’s increasing deficiencies, and made the decision to return home, possibly a year or two sooner than he had anticipated. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/74 "2014-07-12T16:02:46Z")
If Lebron had had no intention of leaving or taking a paycut, he wouldn’t have opted out. He explicitly said he didn’t leave because the Heat couldn’t build a good enough team around him. How much more evidence do you really need? The simple point is that there is no reasonable definition of cheap include a team that would have paid (IIRC) over $35mm in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/75 "2014-07-12T17:10:11Z")
Arison is worth billions. If Lebron wanted a rock to be paid millions, Arison should have done it. The argument over Miller’s salary is pointless. Lebron is the guy you want. If he wanted Arison to pay $40m for Miller, Arison should have done that with a smile Maybe its not objectively cheap to get rid of a guy whose stats don’t measure up to what he’s getting paid, but basketball players are not thinking objectively. What it would have showed Lebron is that Arison would have pulled out all the stops to keep him, and that might have affected his decision. Instead, Arison may have gone the “reasonable” route and not overpay a guy and Lebron might have thought, perhaps incorrectly, that he was being cheap. If you have Lebron, you don’t take that chance. You pay whoever he wants you to pay in order to keep him ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/76 "2014-07-12T17:16:44Z")
Some stats matter more than others, for example 8 three pointers in a finals clinching game count more than mediocre regular season stats. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/77 "2014-07-12T20:02:44Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If Lebron had had no intention of leaving or taking a paycut, he wouldn’t have opted out. The team asked them to opt out for salary cap purposes. See [this explanation of the “apron”](http://newsok.com/nba-salary-cap-101-the-cap-the-luxury-tax-and-the-apron/article/4747971/?page=2), and [Zach Lowe’s explanation in the context of the Heat.](http://grantland.com/features/nba-miami-heat-double-standard-contract-sacrifice-lebron-james-chris-bosh-houston-rockets-free-agency/) Because they wanted to use the full MLE to sign McRoberts, their payroll was going to be capped at around $81 million for next season. This is over the luxury tax threshold, but remember that the luxury tax has tiers depending on how much you exceed it. > [@](#): > > He explicitly said he didn’t leave because the Heat couldn’t build a good enough team around him. How much more evidence do you really need? The simple point is that there is no reasonable definition of cheap include a team that would have paid (IIRC) over $35mm in taxes. Debatable. Forbes tabbed their operating profit at over $29 million for 2013-14, and the value of the franchise has more than doubled since 2010. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/78 "2014-07-12T20:15:11Z")
Oh, one more thing. Miami’s local TV deal expires after next season. Those broadcast rights would have been much more valuable with LeBron on the team. Why risk losing him by cheaping out on paying the luxury tax when you could have more than made it back with a more favorable local TV deal? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/79 "2014-07-12T20:54:47Z")
So no one gives my theory any credence, or even thinks it’s worthy of rebuttal at least? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875/80 "2014-07-12T21:22:53Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The team asked them to opt out for salary cap purposes. Yes, but not to take less money. It was a means of getting better players for more money, which undercuts the idea that they weren’t willing to spend to get players to help out Lebron. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Debatable. Forbes tabbed their operating profit at over $29 million for 2013-14, and the value of the franchise has more than doubled since 2010. There is no debate about it. Please tell me a team other than the Nets that has spent more? In 2011-12 they paid $13.3mm in taxes, only behind the Lakers. In 2012-13 they paid even more. They were willing to pay over $30mm in taxes this year if they had been able to keep Lebron. How exactly are they cheap? You can argue they didn’t spend their money as effectively as they should have, but even that is a stretch given the fact that they have been the best team in the NBA over the last 4 years, and one of the top 2-4 last year. This wasn’t some epic failure. It was just some moves that didn’t up working out, and a few guys being hurt which resulted in them losing in the NBA finals; their 4th in 4 years. This idea that they were cutting corners and being cheap, or that Mike Miller was the missing piece that led to their decline makes absolutely no sense. The CBA basically makes it impossible to have 3 or more max guys AND a bunch of great players who are earning their market value. That is/was the point of the soft cap. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lebron-to-return-to-cleveland/692875.md?page=5)