# Led Zeppelin's Kashmir **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 10, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884 "2017-03-10T17:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/121 "2017-03-11T22:44:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Hahahaha, I went to Youtube in search of the video where Page explains the origin of Kashmir (“It Might Get Loud” documentary) and stumbled upon this along the way (Six-year old girl drums and sings Black Dog…on a Frozen drum set no less, and at one point sings and drums at the same time. Pretty cool). I know the Dope generally eschews cute and sweet but this is too good to miss. Her face during the guitar solo really shows how much she’s lovin’ it. I originally thought - cynic as I am - that she was just bashing along to a recorded track. However, check this out. Same girl, a bit younger, really definitely playing along to Floyd’s _Hey You_: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YuSTsxEzb2w/hqdefault.jpg "Eduarda Henklein (4 anos) tocando Hey you - Pink Floyd") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuSTsxEzb2w) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/122 "2017-03-11T22:58:58Z")
[quote=“Baron\_Greenback, post:121, topic:781884”] I originally thought - cynic as I am - that she was just bashing along to a recorded track. However, check this out. Same girl, a bit younger, really definitely playing along to Floyd’s _Hey You_: [/QUOTE] And System of a Down _Toxicity_ Bloody Hell. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/123 "2017-03-11T23:10:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Apropos of nothing, it was years before I realized I’d been at their very last concert in the USA (Oakland, CA) before Bonzo died and the band broke up. I was at that show too. They came on super late – partially due to the Grant/Graham feud that went on backstage, I’m sure. We were up in the stands along the 3rd baseline and the sound wasn’t very good at all. Not a great show in my book but I am glad I got to see them. > [@WordMan](#): > > Jimmy legendarily plays an old Danelectro, a famously-cheap-but surprisingly-playable guitar that was also sold through Sears. Masonite and plywood, baby ;). And the pickups are called Lipsticks because the founder literally got a great deal on a shipment of lipstick cases and used them to enclose his pickups. Jimmy’s main slide guitar. I love the scene of him playing _White Summer_ in How The West Was Won. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/124 "2017-03-11T23:10:34Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > She is cute and does a great job, but a six-year old girl singing those lyrics…dunno about that. > > (ad me to the list of old people in this thread) Same here. But such is the age we live in. Youtube is full of cute young kids singing and playing along to adult lyrics. Not much we can do about it though, eh? > [@Baron Greenback](#): > > originally thought - cynic as I am - that she was just bashing along to a recorded track. However, check this out. Same girl, a bit younger, really definitely playing along to Floyd’s Hey You… Dang! She’s been serious about it for quite a while. I was sort of nodding along and looking at sidebar videos while she plodded along there in the beginning but 2:00 made me sit up and take notice. > [@Baron Greenback](#): > > Bloody Hell. Since we’re on the subject of cute little girl drummers doing adult songs, check out 8-year-old Daniella Villareal (10 when posted but 8 when recorded) drumming to My Life Would Suck. I posted it to the board before but this seems like a good time for a revisit. I think you’ll be blown away. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/MUAhV8K-v3A/maxresdefault.jpg "10 Year Old Girl Drummer- Paulina From Mexico - My Life Would Suck-Cobus Version") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAhV8K-v3A) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/125 "2017-03-11T23:29:30Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For me, prog was much more musically complex to the point of being unlistenable much of the time. And, thematically, Led Zep was much more rooted to sex, drugs, rocknroll, than the acts I associate with prog rock. When I think prog, I generally think non-conventional lyrical themes, extended orchestrated instrumental sections (not just improvised solos), complex time signatures (yes, Zep had a few of these, but mostly stuck to 4/4), a move away from blues-based and major pentatonic improvisation, entire albums that explore one theme or a set of related themes (aka “concept albums”), that sort of stuff. I just find prog, in general, much more cerebral than the bulk of Led Zeppelin’s work. A band like Metallica, to me, is a much closer example to prog rock, but nobody would call them prog, either. Yet Zep definitely had quite a few prog-flavored cuts that got rather high visibility and airplay, and lyrically were rather philosophical all told, miles removed from S/D/R&R tropes. Just off the top of my head: Stairway Kashmir No Quarter Ten Years Gone Battle of Evermore Achilles Last Stand And just one lyrical snippet: - Oh, let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dreams I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen They talk of days for which they sit and wait, all will be revealed Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, sounds caress my ears But not a word I heard could I relay, the story was quite clear\* Sound like a guy trying to put the make on some gal in a titty bar in Manchester to you? No, their virtuosity/complexity may not have been quite the equal of Yes et al. at their most intricate (note I parted company with Yes at that exact moment-Tales of Topographic Oceans \ when they got too technical and lost the ability to craft actual hooks), but those slot in quite well beside them. Now, you could now cavil about what % of the catalogue had these qualities, vs. the Whole Lotta Love/Rock and Roll axis, if you like, and continue to get nitpicky about what Only True Proggers must do to get the appropriate label pasted on them, but Zep definitely had a proggy side. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/126 "2017-03-11T23:54:39Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Schooly D used it for a great song, “Signifying Rapper” back in the 80s. Fun stuff. Yeah Puff Daddy and Jimmy Page on the same stage is a whole lotta unoriginal. “There are no new melodies nowadays. What people talk of as ‘the last new song’ always recalls to me some tune I’ve known as a child!” - Lewis Carroll \*Sylvie and Bruno Concluded \* ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/127 "2017-03-12T01:38:06Z")
Carmin Appice and (then-proggy) Phil Collins were briefly considered as possible replacements for John Bonham upon his death in 1980. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/128 "2017-03-12T01:44:08Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > but Zep definitely had a proggy side. I’m not disputing that at all, and I even said so upthread: “Yeah, I would definitely say some of the later stuff, especially, had prog elements to it, maybe even being prog songs.” I also mentioned that’s the era where I lost interest in them. I have just never heard anyone call them a “prog rock” band until this thread. Anyhow, it’s not that important. It was just an offhand remark. Continue with your regularly scheduled thread about Kashmir. ---
**Author:** ![DMGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@DMGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/129 "2017-03-12T01:54:34Z")
If you get a chance, check out Kevin Gilbert’s version of Kashmir. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/130 "2017-03-12T02:06:49Z")
OK, I give up. Why is it called “Black Dog?” ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/131 "2017-03-12T02:36:02Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > OK, I give up. Why is it called “Black Dog?” Per WIKI if accurate _[The song’s title is a reference to a nameless, black Labrador Retriever that wandered around the Headley Grange studios during recording.[8][9] The retriever, despite his advanced age, was still sexually adventurous, like the song’s protagonist who reiterates his desperate desire for a woman’s love and the happiness it provides. As Plant explained to a 1972 concert audience:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dog_(song))_ ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/132 "2017-03-12T02:37:36Z")
Re: Zep and prog. I’m just listening, inspired by this thread, to _Physical Graffiti_ and _Kashmir_, and the strongest flavor of prog that this and other songs had was John Paul Jones’ mellotron. I love the sound of a mellotron and always seek out songs with it, and most bands that used it could be somehow ranked in the prog genre, think of Moody Blues, fore-bearers of prog and the use of the mellotron in pop music. And since Deep Purple and Black Sabbath were mentioned as the other two founders of heavy metal: they both too had strong prog elements: the first three Deep Purple albums before the mk2 line-up was pure early prog/heavy metal hybrid sound, and Sabbath always had one or two proggy songs on their early albums (but no mellotrons as far as I remember). ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/133 "2017-03-12T02:44:11Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Carmin Appice and (then-proggy) Phil Collins were briefly considered as possible replacements for John Bonham upon his death in 1980. Live Aid (1985)- didn’t Phil Collins and Tony Thompson (Power Station/Chic) play for the mini Zep reunion?.. [yep](http://www.rollingstone.com/music/videos/flashback-led-zeppelin-reunite-badly-at-live-aid-20140311) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/134 "2017-03-12T02:50:16Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Re: Zep and prog. I’m just listening, inspired by this thread, to _Physical Graffiti_ and _Kashmir_, and the strongest flavor of prog that this and other songs had was John Paul Jones’ mellotron. The proggiest Zep songs for me are “Carouselambra,” “No Quarter,” and “Achilles Last Stand.” I would agree those are pretty much straight-up prog. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/135 "2017-03-12T03:34:02Z")
When I was 18 just being in front of a PA after hours DJ, and hearing “The Song Remains the same” (or no quarter) this is the best ever zep song. WTF!! New worlds!!. kashmir is OK. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/136 "2017-03-12T10:31:10Z")
Another thing to point out is the phase shifter on Bonham’s drums. That added layer of “whooooSHHHHHhHHooooooosh” adds something to his slow groove. It was a still a relatively new effect with a few standout uses, like that whooshy middle bit in Free Ride. Eddie’s use of his trusty MXR Phase 90 (modified, of course) made it a must have on your pedalboard. But it really works on the Kashmir drums. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/137 "2017-03-12T13:05:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And, thematically, Led Zep was much more rooted to sex, drugs, rocknroll, than the acts I associate with prog rock. When I think prog, I generally think non-conventional lyrical themes Prog to me definitely has all these components (even the ones I clipped) but I think that people don’t give Led Zep prog cred because they categorize _that type_ of non-conventional lyrics as “heavy metal”. If those same style of fantastic lyrical themes constantly appeared in, say, an EDM group, they very well might be categorized as “prog dance”, but since Led Zep is blues based hard rock, people think “blues based hard rock + lyrics exploring a fantasy theme = metal”. I’ve said this before, but if you clip off the first two sex-and-rock-and-roll tracks from LZIV, I would call the result at least as “prog” as Tull and Rush since the weird lyrics and alternating musical styles quotient is upped. But in general I’d think that the _music_ behind early Zep (rather than the lyrics) is not experimental enough to consider Zep “prog” when taken as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/138 "2017-03-12T13:13:04Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Another thing to point out is the phase shifter on Bonham’s drums. That added layer of “whooooSHHHHHhHHooooooosh” adds something to his slow groove. It was a still a relatively new effect with a few standout uses, like that whooshy middle bit in Free Ride. Eddie’s use of his trusty MXR Phase 90 (modified, of course) made it a must have on your pedalboard. But it really works on the Kashmir drums. True. However, there’s a bootleg of Zep playing “Kashmir” during rehearsals for the 1980 tour that never happened (due to Bonhams’s death), and the effect on the listener of this “effect” is horrendous: a woozy, swishy seasickness. They must have had the settings wrong that day. I agree it works great in the original recording. Causal listeners only notice it in the two long fills in the last minute (fadeout), but of course it’s actually there the whole time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/139 "2017-03-12T14:55:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Prog to me definitely has all these components (even the ones I clipped) but I think that people don’t give Led Zep prog cred because they categorize _that type_ of non-conventional lyrics as “heavy metal”. If those same style of fantastic lyrical themes constantly appeared in, say, an EDM group, they very well might be categorized as “prog dance”, but since Led Zep is blues based hard rock, people think “blues based hard rock + lyrics exploring a fantasy theme = metal”. > > I’ve said this before, but if you clip off the first two sex-and-rock-and-roll tracks from LZIV, I would call the result at least as “prog” as Tull and Rush since the weird lyrics and alternating musical styles quotient is upped. > > But in general I’d think that the _music_ behind early Zep (rather than the lyrics) is not experimental enough to consider Zep “prog” when taken as a whole. That’s a thoughtful and fair analysis, and one I pretty much agree with. I’m. It sure I’d go that far about IV, but I do see/hear the echoes of early prog in some of the tunes. My comment about lyrical content was just one piece of the whole–it’s mostly the sound of the music that makes it not quite feel like prog until the later years, as with the songs I named previously, to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884/140 "2017-03-12T15:00:04Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > True. However, there’s a bootleg of Zep playing “Kashmir” during rehearsals for the 1980 tour that never happened (due to Bonhams’s death), and the effect on the listener of this “effect” is horrendous: a woozy, swishy seasickness. They must have had the settings wrong that day. > > I agree it works great in the original recording. Causal listeners only notice it in the two long fills in the last minute (fadeout), but of course it’s actually there the whole time. It’s pretty evident on the initial crash cymbal, I would think. But, then again, I’m not a casual listener. But, still, the phaser/flanger is pretty in your face at that point. During the main groove, though, yeah, the effect is a bit buried. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/led-zeppelins-kashmir/781884.md?page=8)