# Left-Leaning Dopers: who is a better investigative journalist, you or Bob Woodward? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124 "2015-05-29T15:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/1 "2015-05-29T15:18:39Z")
[Here a link.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP6yPjMprK8) As it turns out, Bob Woodward, certainly no right-wing neocon, looked into the Iraq debacle for 18 months and concluded that there was no lying that got us into Iraq. Certainly not by Bush. While no fan of Bush myself, I’ve argued numerous times on this board that while going into to Iraq maybe have been the wrong thing to do (especially in hindsight), that the accusation that Bush lied about…whatever…in order to go into Iraq was, at best, an unfair accusation. But some here argued against me with a degree of certainty that looked at any questioning of their “reality” as Bush Lover + Neocon + Loony Tooner. So, now that we have a highly respected investigative reporter having looked into the issue for 18 months and concluding that the accusation of “Bush lied” is flatly wrong. So, the question I have is: of those who were/are of the mind that Bush and/or his administration lied in order to go into Iraq, does Woodward’s investigation and conclusion give you pause? Does it make you think that maybe you were wrong and that you might have gotten caught up in the narrative that was pushed by the Kos and Media Matters crowd? Or is it that you have looked into the matter more than Woodward, have more access than Woodward, know more about what went on than he learned in his 18-month investigation, and would no doubt be able to change his mind if only you could share with him your research into the matter? Or, are you of the mind that Woodward is a secret Republican? Neocon? Bush lover? Sell-out? Idiot? Something else? Will any of you care to simply state that it looks like the position you held was wrong? [A U.S. News & World Report article about Woodward’s revelation.](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2015/05/26/bob-woodward-bush-didnt-lie-to-start-iraq-war) [Article with transcript of Woodward’s words. (Plus a video at the bottom with a great musical backdrop of Traffic’s _The Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys_.)](http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/207458/) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/2 "2015-05-29T15:26:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, the question I have is: of those who were/are of the mind that Bush and/or his administration lied in order to go into Iraq, does Woodward’s investigation and conclusion give you pause? That’s crazy talk. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/3 "2015-05-29T15:32:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s crazy talk. > > Regards, > Shodan Maybe. But I’d like to believe that at least a couple of people will grant that Woodward is someone they trust and that he knows WAY more about the issue than they do. For those who stick to the bumper sticker “Bush Lied, people died”, well, their credibility is in their own hands. My guess is that few of any will choose to engage. It’s hard for them to type with their fingers in their ears. For those that do, and have the backbone to admit that Woodward probably knows more about this than they do, good for them. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/4 "2015-05-29T15:40:08Z")
I have not [del]read[/del] seen it, and so cannot comment on the specifics. Woodward, however, is hardly a “highly-respected investigative reporter.” Frankly, he’s a hack with a well-documented history of self-serving inveiglement, obfuscation, and outright lying. If I were in the “Bush lied” camp, it would take more than Woodward’s “investigation” to change my mind, as the man has repeatedly shown himself to be untrustworthy. Really, this is the most admirably well-poisoning OP I’ve seen in a while. It’s pretty awesome, and I mean that in all sincerity. I look forward to seeing how it unfolds. . ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/5 "2015-05-29T15:40:25Z")
It would help you make your case a lot more if you could post what Woodward actually reported, not just a transcript from Fox where he says no more than you do. _Facts_ are convincing, personalities are not. If he’s just saying [the Costanza Defense](http://theweek.com/articles/555921/george-w-bush-didnt-just-lie-about-iraq-war-what-did-much-worse) is valid, we’ve been over that pretty thoroughly, not to your advantage either. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/6 "2015-05-29T15:42:32Z")
The claim made by Bush and Powell was that Saddam had WMDs and that was why we needed to invade. Unless Mr. Woodward finally found those elusive WMDs, I don’t see how the claim can be made that Bush wasn’t lying. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/7 "2015-05-29T15:47:15Z")
Indeed. Bumper-sticker slogans are only truthful on issues like gay marriage. But I digress - it’s not necessary to prove Bush lied at any time: the matter is equally appalling if he selectively listened to and based his decisions on intelligence that fit his preconceptions. This leads to aides passing on reports that Bush wants to hear, suppressing or minimizing reports Bush DIDN’T want to hear, which further down the chain finds people who indeed lied. The entire affair becomes a showcase for confirmation bias. That said, I personally think the invasion was justifiable. The two main problems are: 1. There was a more pressing issue in Afghanistan; and 2. The post invasion plan, if it can be called that, was an astonishingly colossal fuckup. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/8 "2015-05-29T15:47:33Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The claim made by Bush and Powell was that Saddam had WMDs and that was why we needed to invade. Unless Mr. Woodward finally found those elusive WMDs, I don’t see how the claim can be made that Bush wasn’t lying. 1. One can be wrong and not be lying 2. Read the links I provided ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/9 "2015-05-29T15:49:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It would help you make your case a lot more if you could post what Woodward actually reported, not just a transcript from Fox where he says no more than you do. _Facts_ are convincing, personalities are not. > > If he’s just saying [the Costanza Defense](http://theweek.com/articles/555921/george-w-bush-didnt-just-lie-about-iraq-war-what-did-much-worse) is valid, we’ve been over that pretty thoroughly, not to your advantage either. We have Woodward himself offering a synopsis of what he discovered. If YOU think he’s wrong, or that the synopsis doesn’t give an accurate view of his findings, it falls to YOU to demonstrate that. I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/10 "2015-05-29T15:50:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > 1. One can be wrong and not be lying That is not established to have been the case. > [@](#): > > 1. Read the links I provided They say no more than you do. Read mine. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/11 "2015-05-29T15:52:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We have Woodward himself offering a synopsis of what he discovered. All your links say is that he said he found nuttink, Herr Kommandant. Supporting evidence? No. But we’re used to that. > [@](#): > > I’ll wait. You would do better to invoke facts than personalities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/12 "2015-05-29T15:52:28Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > The claim made by Bush and Powell was that Saddam had WMDs and that was why we needed to invade. Unless Mr. Woodward finally found those elusive WMDs, I don’t see how the claim can be made that Bush wasn’t lying. Simple. A lie is a deliberate attempt to make a false statement. If you think what you are saying is true, then it’s not a lie-- it’s an error. Whether or not Bush knew what he was saying was false is something you guys can debate for the 1,000th time if you like. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/13 "2015-05-29T15:52:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I have not [del]read[/del] seen it, and so cannot comment on the specifics. Funny. > [@andros](#): > > Woodward, however, is hardly a “highly-respected investigative reporter.” Frankly, he’s a hack with a well-documented history of self-serving inveiglement, obfuscation, and outright lying. If I were in the “Bush lied” camp, it would take more than Woodward’s “investigation” to change my mind, as the man has repeatedly shown himself to be untrustworthy. Hahahahahaha. So tell me, do you profess to know more about the issue than Woodward? Do you think that people should look to you as a more trustworthy source than Woodward? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/14 "2015-05-29T15:55:03Z")
When was the last time Woodward was factually referenced by anyone on the left on this board? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/15 "2015-05-29T15:56:36Z")
Everyone seems to agree that “if we knew then what we know no, there should be no decision to invade.” What do we know now that we didn’t know then? Perhaps Bush believed there were WMDs. I doubt he believed that it was\*\*\* necessary \*\*\*to invade because of that. So, that’s a lie. We have WMDs. Should Canada invade us? Fuck Bush. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/16 "2015-05-29T15:56:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That is not established to have been the case. Neither has it that he lied. But now we have highly respected investigative reporter having looked into the issue for 18 months and concluding that Bush did NOT lie. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They say no more than you do. Read mine. Let’s start here. Now, with the benefit of the investigation having been done by Woodward, did Bush lie or not? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/17 "2015-05-29T15:57:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > All your links say is that he said he found nuttink, Herr Kommandant. Supporting evidence? No. But we’re used to that. > > You would do better to invoke facts than personalities. You would do better to work with facts rather than leftist fantasies and rantings. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/18 "2015-05-29T15:58:10Z")
IOW, “Talking head on Fox says what Fox viewers would like to hear.” That is literally all you have provided us to consider. And since you are stuck on the point, _my dog_ is a better investigative journalist than Woodward has been since the Nixon administration. He has a more acute sense of smell and follows it where it takes him. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/19 "2015-05-29T15:59:19Z")
From one of the links made by the OP: > [@](#): > > According to Woodward, Bush himself was skeptical about the presence of weapons of mass destruction and urged caution on then-CIA Director George Tenet lest he stretch the case that there were. Of course everyone (except some posters) cannot forget the shameful presentation to the UN that put the lie on this item. IMHO Woodward is stretching his 15 minutes of fame, indeed it is hard not to notice how many former famous journalists seem to be crashing and burning in their efforts to remain relevant. He is now more into trolling for history and for the coming election it is important to prop up the Bush name. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/20 "2015-05-29T16:00:31Z")
Did Woodward conclude that Bush didn’t lie, or did Woodward not conclude that Bush lied? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124.md?page=2)