# Left-Leaning Dopers: who is a better investigative journalist, you or Bob Woodward? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124 "2015-05-29T15:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/181 "2015-06-01T02:25:36Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > So knowing what you know today or knowing what you could have sussed out then explain to me how Bush could have come to the conclusion that attacking Iraq was the _best_ course of action. Take your time, I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts. When I was in high school, a kid took a cheap metal fork, bent a couple of tines and inserted it into an electrical socket. He was of course knocked on his ass, but survived this totally nonsensical episode. If you were to ask me why a reasonably intelligent 16 year old thought it was a good idea to do something that, if one had thought about it even for two seconds, was totally non productive and very risky. I have no damned idea what was going through that boy’s mind to conclude, “I should do this now.” Now, for Bush, I really think he thought he was doing the right thing. But if I scratch a little deeper, and question why he thought Saddam was going to attack Manhattan with anthrax-spewing model airplanes that can’t cover 30 miles, to say nothing of 7,000 miles, I am left similarly mystified at the reasoning. I have heard so many people boil the war down to “did he have WMD or not?” In my mind, even if he had WMD, that didn’t mean he was a serious threat to the U.S., nor did it justify war. Tons of counties have WMD, but that doesn’t mean we have to invade them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/182 "2015-06-01T03:01:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Now, for Bush, I really think he thought he was doing the right thing. TonySinclair’s excellent post above should render this irrelevant. Of course Bush thought he was doing the right thing. Everyone is the hero of their own movie. The question isn’t whether he thought he was doing the right thing. The question is whether he was lying. There are plenty of times where lying is the right thing to do. There are plenty of times where lying is not the right thing to do. I believe that regarding the Iraq war, Bush believed telling lies to get us into a war was the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/183 "2015-06-01T03:12:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Now, for Bush, I really think he thought he was doing the right thing. But if I scratch a little deeper, and question why he thought Saddam was going to attack Manhattan with anthrax-spewing model airplanes that can’t cover 30 miles, to say nothing of 7,000 miles, I am left similarly mystified at the reasoning. How about this? He wanted to invade Iraq but knew that any other reason would not be justifiable. SH is a terrible dictator! So what? They have WMDs!! So what? They are almost certainly planning to attack the US!! Where do we sign the AUMF? > [@](#): > > I have heard so many people boil the war down to “did he have WMD or not?” In my mind, even if he had WMD, that didn’t mean he was a serious threat to the U.S., nor did it justify war. Tons of counties have WMD, but that doesn’t mean we have to invade them. I said the exact same thing upthread, and back in 2002/3. There wasn’t a country in the world that was more boxed in than Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/184 "2015-06-01T03:44:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Oh, please. Here is the exact quote in question: Yeah, I thought the additional “and what septimus did” was overstating it, but I ran out of edit time before I could remove it. Anyway, I’ll still describe the action as treasonous (and not because of some idiotic partisan bias, as you suggest), regardless of what a court said or what the penalty turned out to be. If someone wants to sue me for libel, bring it on. Septimus described the outcome inaccurately on several counts, but “treasonous” as an overall descriptor is just fine by me. Seriously, burned a CIA agent out of petty spite in an effort to get back at her husband because he wasn’t playing ball with the president? “Treason” might not fit, but “treasonous” will do. On further research, “treasonable” would also serve. If you want to maintain that I’m “OK with spreading ignorance”, that’s cool. You’d be a fucking moron to do so, but hey… freedom. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/185 "2015-06-01T03:49:57Z")
So, what Snowden did was “treasonous”, too, then. Right? And yes, I argued against the idiots on the right who insisted it was, too. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/186 "2015-06-01T03:59:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, what Snowden did was “treasonous”, too, then. Right? Arguably, I suppose. I haven’t been following the story closely enough to gauge the extent of the damage he may have caused, and his motivations are certainly better than Libby’s. If Snowden is eventually tried in a U.S. court, I could picture treason being considered as a charge. Not likely, I think, but not off the table. If someone wants to casually describe his actions as “treasonous”, I have no objection. > [@](#): > > And yes, I argued against the idiots on the right who insisted it was, too. And your celebratory 5th Avenue parade will be spectacular, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/187 "2015-06-01T05:33:14Z")
I’m happy to use words like “murder” or “treason” in a common-sense way without a jury conviction for the specific felony. Deliberately outing a covert U.S. agent is clearly treason, IMHO. True, there may be no proof this is what Cheney, Libby, or even Novak did, but my contempt for Cheney is huge so I assume he was quite capable of it. And I don’t think my contempt for Cheney or Rove is misplaced. **John** , can you name a senior official from the JFK or LBJ Administration who was as evil (“profoundly immoral and malevolent”) as Cheney or Rove? And, although I may be unclear on some details of the whole affair, I certainly knew the jailing of Miller preceded the conviction of Libby. The chronology was irrelevant to my terse summary. I will obtain and watch _Fog of War_ and try to educate myself, but I’m afraid my underlying opinion won’t change. Incompetence, however extreme, isn’t evil. Note that Bush-Cheney lies are not the key issue (as **marshmallow** stated, they thought they were framing a guilty man) since the _WMDs were never the real reason they went to war anyway_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/188 "2015-06-01T05:48:06Z")
Just out of curiosity, **septimus** , how old are you? I’m thinking if you didn’t live thru the Vietnam War years it might be difficult to appreciate just how bad they were. But in the end if you’re sure your opinion isn’t going to change, then what is the use of further discussion? I and others made the salient points already if not for you, then for others reading. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/189 "2015-06-01T06:24:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just out of curiosity, **septimus** , how old are you? I was draft-age for the Vietnam War, which became especially personal when I lost my student deferment. Among my peers there was widespread sentiment that the war was stupid and immoral, but I was living in my own “fog” then and geopolitics was not my concern. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/190 "2015-06-01T07:20:49Z")
Granpa? You lost your “student deferment”? Wouldn’t they give you another one if you showed your student ID? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/191 "2015-06-01T10:18:37Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > . . . I was living in my own “fog” then. . . Is THAT what they called it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/192 "2015-06-01T12:28:11Z")
Sweet Queen Jane was the least of my problems in those days. But what’s with **elucidater** calling me “Granpa”? I thought you were an old hippie yourself, 'Luci. In fact, wasn’t that you with the bells and zany beads blowing bubbles in the Golden Gate Park Panhandle in the Spring of '68? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/193 "2015-06-01T13:02:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Saddam could have just given those old weapons up. He chose not to, so it was reasonable to assume he did that for a reason. OF course. To avoid \*admitting \*he didn’t actually have anything that anybody needed to be afraid of. A dictator rules by fear, and if he loses that weapon, he’s done for. Oh, and **magellan01**? This is the Pit now. You can go ahead and say what you want to now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/194 "2015-06-01T13:43:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [Gulf of Tonkin incident - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident) > > “It was originally claimed by the National Security Agency that a Second Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead evidence was found of “Tonkin ghosts”[3] (false radar images) and not actual North Vietnamese torpedo boats. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the August 2nd USS Maddox attack happened with no Defense Department response, but the August 4th Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened.” Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/195 "2015-06-01T14:16:53Z")
I think one of the problems with comparing the Iraq war to other wars is that it is inextricably associated with Bush/Cheney. And those guys don’t have any counter-accomplishments to redeem them. Yeah, Bush spearheaded funds for AIDS prevention in Africa, but compared to Johnson or other presidents, there really isn’t much. Bush = Iraq and only Iraq in ways that you can say about Johnson or even Nixon. I mean, if you want to talk about evil, what about sending \> 100,000 people of Japanese ancestry (most of whom were US citizens) to concentration camps? But that’s not THE ONLY THING that FDR is known for. I’m not seeing much value in playing the _Quien es mas Evil?_ game. We have two wars, both of which were unnecessary, started on false pretexts where 100s of thousands of people were killed, 10s of thousands of US troops killed or wounded, and the US government manipulated the political structure of a foreign government. To say they are not comparable is to play the No True Scotsman game. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/196 "2015-06-01T14:49:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I mean, if you want to talk about evil, what about sending \> 100,000 people of Japanese ancestry (most of whom were US citizens) to concentration camps? But that’s not THE ONLY THING that FDR is known for. Off-topic: it’s a sad loss to American history that nobody remembers the name James H. Rowe, Jr., pretty much the only guy in the Roosevelt administration who [tried to stop the internment](http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/pdfs/internment.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/197 "2015-06-01T15:08:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Off-topic: it’s a sad loss to American history that nobody remembers the name James H. Rowe, Jr., pretty much the only guy in the Roosevelt administration who [tried to stop the internment](http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/archives/pdfs/internment.pdf). Wow! I’ve never heard of him. Wikipedia has no entry on him. An internet site on him doesn’t mention his resistance to the internment ( [Trumanlibrary.org](http://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/rowe.htm) ) and neither does his NYT obit from 1984 ( [http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/19/obituaries/james-rowe-new-deal-aide-and-an-assistant-to-roosevelt.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/19/obituaries/james-rowe-new-deal-aide-and-an-assistant-to-roosevelt.html) ) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/198 "2015-06-01T15:47:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Sweet Queen Jane was the least of my problems in those days. But what’s with **elucidater** calling me “Granpa”? I thought you were an old hippie yourself, 'Luci. In fact, wasn’t that you with the bells and zany beads blowing bubbles in the Golden Gate Park Panhandle in the Spring of '68? Well, my memory isn’t as good as it used to be. Or maybe it is, and I just don’t remember… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/199 "2015-06-01T16:06:47Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Wow! I’ve never heard of him. Wikipedia has no entry on him. An internet site on him doesn’t mention his resistance to the internment ( [Trumanlibrary.org](http://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/rowe.htm) ) and neither does his NYT obit from 1984 ( [http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/19/obituaries/james-rowe-new-deal-aide-and-an-assistant-to-roosevelt.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/19/obituaries/james-rowe-new-deal-aide-and-an-assistant-to-roosevelt.html) ) You aren’t very good at snark. You should probably just stick to talking normally. But props to you if you had heard of him, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/200 "2015-06-01T16:14:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You aren’t very good at snark. You should probably just stick to talking normally. But props to you if you had heard of him, I suppose. No snark – I was talking (or writing) normally. The Wow! was because apparently reliable sources were unaware of this aspect of him as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124.md?page=11)