# Left-Leaning Dopers: who is a better investigative journalist, you or Bob Woodward? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124 "2015-05-29T15:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/201 "2015-06-01T16:23:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think one of the problems with comparing the Iraq war to other wars is that it is inextricably associated with Bush/Cheney. And those guys don’t have any counter-accomplishments to redeem them. Yeah, Bush spearheaded funds for AIDS prevention in Africa, but compared to Johnson or other presidents, there really isn’t much. Bush = Iraq and only Iraq in ways that you can say about Johnson or even Nixon. Kind of like Lincoln. No wonder he’s so reviled. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/202 "2015-06-01T16:30:39Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Kind of like Lincoln. No wonder he’s so reviled. It was, after all, The War of Northern Aggression! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/203 "2015-06-01T16:56:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > No snark – I was talking (or writing) normally. The Wow! was because apparently reliable sources were unaware of this aspect of him as well. :smack: My sincere apology, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/204 "2015-06-02T15:14:40Z")
Isn’t Bush the guy that made the rehabilitation of Nixon a plausible (even if still unlikely) possibility? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/205 "2015-06-02T15:56:41Z")
I’ve come to realize 2 things while reading this thread: 1. I’m apparently a better investigative journalist than Bob Woodward 2. I’m waaaaay smarter than magellan01 😉 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/206 "2015-06-02T16:35:59Z")
**Honest mistakes, no matter how serious, are distinct from malevolence.** > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to watch [_The Fog of War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War). I thought you were familiar with the fact that we were lied into the Vietnam War, but maybe you aren’t. I’m not seeing any significant difference between the sincerity of motives by either camp. You can rationalize it all you want, but lies are lies and both wars unleashed its own share of evils, which is what you raised in your post. I’ve watched it now … and am totally baffled why you used this film, an interview of McNamara, to make your point. _I consider that it confirms my viewpoint._ The specific lie often cited, Golf of Tonkin incidents, was explained in the film. If McNamara is to be believed, the first alleged attack by NV did happen; the 2nd was an honest mistake which wasn’t clarified until after Congress acted. Maybe there’s another source claiming McNamara is lying about the first incident, but this obviously isn’t it. The most interesting parts of the film were audios of LBJ-McNamara conversations. I’d previously read transcripts of other conversations between these two. The picture painted is one of two men being drawn reluctantly, and for different reasons, into bad decisions leading to a gradually escalating war. _This is the polar opposite of the Cheney-Bush War_, where leaders raced happily and heedlessly into full war. The Vietnam War was stupid, mistaken and, yes, immoral in the sense that most wars abound with immorality. The way McNamara passes the buck (“I was pursuing the policies of an elected President”) can be condemned. But I find the motives for Vietnam War and the Invasion of Iraq to be completely opposite. Where **John Mace** and I differ is on the “sincerity of motives” of Cheney and Bush. If after all the evidence that’s been presented, and observing the hideous aftermath of the War, Mace views Cheney-Bush as fundamentally “sincere”, I’m afraid I’m too flabbergasted to attempt a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/207 "2015-06-02T18:29:20Z")
It beats admitting that no, they _don’t_ both do it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/208 "2015-06-02T20:25:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Golf of Tonkin incidents Well, they certainly teed me off. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/209 "2015-06-02T20:36:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Isn’t Bush the guy that made the rehabilitation of Nixon a plausible (even if still unlikely) possibility? I recall British joke dating from the W Admin: “George Washington was the president who could not tell a lie, Richard Nixon was the president who could not tell the truth, and George W. Bush is the president who cannot tell the difference.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/210 "2015-06-03T00:18:19Z")
Certainly older than that. It was told about Jimmy Carter, and may well go back farther. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/211 "2015-06-04T06:58:18Z")
Not much farther than Gerald Ford, if Nixon is to remain as the second example. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/212 "2015-06-04T21:03:31Z")
I searched, trying to see if a different version was on record. George Washington couldn’t tell a lie…John Adams couldn’t tell the truth…and Thomas Jefferson couldn’t tell the difference, etc. No joy. I did find a 1901 instance of “Pro and Con are prefixes of opposite meaning, as in Progress and Congress.” ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/213 "2015-06-04T21:25:22Z")
Forthcoming threads along the same lines as this one: Pro-vaccination Dopers: who is a better Doctor, you or Andrew Wakefield? Anti-Ponzi-scheme Dopers: who is a better fund manager, you or Bernie Madoff? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124/214 "2015-06-04T21:51:17Z")
“I am, when I’m in command of my faculties and Bob Woodward is not.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-leaning-dopers-who-is-a-better-investigative-journalist-you-or-bob-woodward/721124.md?page=10)