# Left Of Liberal Dopers: How could America have done civil rights right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662 "2025-08-03T16:25:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/1 "2025-08-03T16:25:32Z")
In a Pit thread, @MrDibble talked about how racism cannot be overcome through the “Magic of Liberalism”, and said this about America’s civil rights era: > [@I Pit Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/578): > > Would you have had the current backsliding situation if racists hadn’t been largely tolerated? > > You’re speaking of the American civil rights story as though it’s a done deal. As though America isn’t currently actually in some ways _more_ racist than it was in the 60s, just to different demographics. Now, I agree with MrDibble that, clearly, America’s civil rights era is not over, and that racism is by no means a _solved problem_ in America, or anything of the sort. To me, this represents a failure to live up to Liberal values. Both because some of the people in the Liberal movement were imperfect, and didn’t live up to their own ideals; as well as because of pushback against Liberalism. But based on MrDibble’s criticism, as well as other things he has said, he clearly disagrees, and believes that Liberalism itself is part of the problem. And other posters have expressed similar opinions, like this one: > [@The UK (and Europe's) free speech problem](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-uk-and-europes-free-speech-problem/1021153/34): > > It seems to me that most of the advocates for ‘free speech’, here and elsewhere, are advocating for classic liberal values while explicitly identifying as liberals? Am I wrong? Is there anyone else in this thread who identifies as a socialist? > > Bourgeois liberalism is only left wing when compared to bourgeois conservatism and aristocratic conservatism. I’m not sure it’s even left wing compared to populism. To the extent that middle class liberals do support the working class, it is inevitably paternalistic, and, if we are honest, entirely contingent on not materially impacting the interests of the liberal middle class. That’s not meaningfully left wing in any shape or form. > > Free Speech is not a socialist value. If you are not a socialist then, with respect, you should not be claiming to be left wing. What exactly do you think America should have done differently during the civil rights era that would have meant that “racists were not largely tolerated”? There are plenty of things that I think could have been done, but they mostly amount to ways that Liberalism’s solutions could have been applied more strongly. Since you critique liberalism, what _il_liberal solutions would you have favored? Can you give some specific, concrete actions that America should have taken that would have prevented this? It’s very simple to _critique_ power by finger wagging and claiming they didn’t do enough to stop racism. But how should power have been _wielded_ to actually materially impact racism? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/2 "2025-08-03T16:26:57Z")
See [my post in the spawning Pit thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-babale/1016738/590). I won’t be participating in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/3 "2025-08-03T16:30:46Z")
Left of liberal?? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/4 "2025-08-03T16:35:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Left of liberal? Correct, did you read the quoted post from Sandwich where they used “liberal” pejoratively and said “liberals” shouldn’t consider themselves “on the left”? I’m talking to people of that political persuasion. I know the answers conservatives or liberals would give to the question; I’m not particularly interested in the opinion of people to the _right_ of _conservatives_ because I’ve long ago written off that entire part of the political spectrum as awful; that just leaves people who are left of Liberalism. Is there a reason for your question? ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/5 "2025-08-03T16:37:34Z")
Let’s not open that one up! Okay, fine. The word “liberal” has so many meanings as to be practically useless, not least because what some in the US mean by “liberal” includes Obama and the Clintons, who in most of the world would be centre-right. A left approach to civil rights would include a strong commitment to and action on economic equality. See, for example, MLK’s calls for socialism. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/6 "2025-08-03T16:40:23Z")
A view on the usefulness of liberals from the Civil Right era, > **[Phil Ochs – Love Me, I'm a Liberal](https://genius.com/Phil-ochs-love-me-im-a-liberal-lyrics)** > > “Love Me, I’m A Liberal,” is a criticism of liberals, as liberals often superficially support things such as civil rights to appear compassionate, but actually reject any action ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/7 "2025-08-03T16:42:15Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Okay, fine. The word “liberal” has so many meanings as to be practically useless, not least because what some in the US mean by “liberal” includes Obama and the Clintons, who in most of the world would be centre-right. …you can open another thread if you want to debate that question, but for the purposes of _this_ thread, I’ll say that I don’t think that’s true at all; I see this floated often and I think it greatly oversells both how left Europe is as well as how right Democrats are. That said, it’s definitely a debate for another thread. I just wanted to note that what you say there is disputed, not settled fact. > [@Kropotkin](#): > > A left approach to civil rights would include a strong commitment to and action on economic equality. See, for example, MLK’s calls for socialism. How would implementing socialism address racism in the American population? Remember, the claim I am responding to is that because liberalism tolerated racists, we still have a big racism problem in America today. What would implementing socialism do to address this? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/8 "2025-08-03T16:47:32Z")
Not an especially god faith question, since the obvious people whom to address this question are the minorities who’d benefit from Civil Rights. Whenever they _have_ been asked, the answer is basically “get your foot off our necks.” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/9 "2025-08-03T16:48:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Left of liberal?? @Babale means anyone more left-leaning than famous liberals like Barry Goldwater or a first-term Ronald Reagan. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/10 "2025-08-03T16:50:20Z")
Apparently there is a backstory here that I did not participate in. Older, white, upper middle class male here. I’m pretty consistently on the left end of the generally liberal folk I associate with, Tho, around here, I’ve been chastised for not supporting some liberal causes sufficiently. 2 things I strongly support are eliminating property tax as the primary funder of education, and encouraging quotas for school admittance and workplace hiring and promoting of historically disadvantaged groups. Not sure if that is what the thread is asking. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/11 "2025-08-03T16:51:06Z")
As others have said, “liberal” has an awful lot of different definitions. I think you need to offer the one you are using in this thread for a coherent debate to take place. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/12 "2025-08-03T16:53:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > As others have said, “liberal” has an awful lot of different definitions. I think you need to offer the one you are using in this thread for a coherent debate to take place I’m pretty sure I did. > [@Babale](#): > > Correct, did you read the quoted post from Sandwich where they used “liberal” pejoratively and said “liberals” shouldn’t consider themselves “on the left”? I’m talking to people of that political persuasion. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > @Babale means anyone more left-leaning than famous liberals like Barry Goldwater or a first-term Ronald Reagan I very clearly don’t mean that, because people like Obama and even quite a bit to the left of him aren’t the sort of people to say “you’re not really on the Left if you’re a Liberal”. So, obviously, they’re not who I am talking about. Does even someone like AOC or Bernie say that? I’ve never heard them do so. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/13 "2025-08-03T16:56:49Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Not an especially god faith question, since the obvious people whom to address this question are the minorities who’d benefit from Civil Rights. Whenever they _have_ been asked, the answer is basically “get your foot off our necks.” I’m fairly certain they’ve given all manners of answers that were far more detailed than that and which spanned the entire political spectrum. If you want to point out that white Socialists tend to answer one way while leftists from minority groups answer differently (or alternatively, that they’re overwhelmingly on the same page) that would be on topic. I’m not sure how that’s ‘bad faith’. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/14 "2025-08-03T17:03:54Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2025, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-of-liberal-dopers-how-could-america-have-done-civil-rights-right/1021662/15 "2025-08-03T17:26:36Z")
This thread is already more trouble than it is worth. Jr. Modding and over-flagging by the OP = closed or moved to Pit. They’ll let me know which. **Moderating:** The OP started off on a bad note with basically calling on MrDibble and a vague concept **as you failed in any way to define “Left of Liberal”.** I’ve been informed there is no interesting in moving it to the pit.