# Left turn area for bicycles **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 19, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393 "2018-06-19T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/21 "2018-06-20T18:32:36Z")
Back when my parents learned to drive in Cleveland OH, that’s pretty much the way all left turns were made. You stayed in the right lane (if there were multiple lanes) then pulled into an small cut out beside and a bit in front of the cross traffic and waited for their green. If there was no cutout, you simply stopped in front of the cars in the cross road. I assumed they stopped doing it this when there were too many cars to fit. I know about this because when I was young there were still a few spots still there. They weren’t in use I don’t believe, but you could see them. Certainly none were in use by the time I started to drive some 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/22 "2018-06-20T19:09:21Z")
I commute to work by bike 1-2 days per week, 12+ miles each way. I agree with **Spiderman** ’s initial assessment - I would not want to cross multiple lanes of 45 mph traffic to make a left turn. In fact, I usually make the same maneuver on busy streets that box is setting up - just roll with the green to the far side corner, then wait for the green over there to go left onto the cross street (without the box). That painted area just makes it “official”, encourages bicyclists to use that method (which someone probably thought is safer), and gets waiting cyclists out of the way of others who may be going straight thru. I notice back down the street another green patch where the bike lane merges with the right-hand turn lane - that is also becoming popular (e.g. watch out for bikes here). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/23 "2018-06-20T20:09:58Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > if you are a cyclist you still need to push The Pedestrian Crossing signal. In Minnesota, you need to push it to get the light to change, but not to get the right to cross when the light turns green. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/24 "2018-06-21T01:37:36Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Here’s one in Cambridge MA - [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3888155,-71.1197187,3a,75y,174.94h,92.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sh2v1ztjWbCk-txxe_4pyJw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dh2v1ztjWbCk-txxe_4pyJw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D334.54453%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) I haven’t noticed that one before, but I don’t ride my bike through Porter Square. Instantly recognizable, though. I rode through [this intersection](https://goo.gl/maps/3U58UzV9Nyu) in Arlington today. If you zoom out a bit, there’s a major bike path going from the upper left to the lower right, so all that traffic goes through there. Arlington seems to take that pretty seriously; the bike lanes and signals are new in the last couple years, and I’ve seen police enforcing stop signs for cyclists and such. I hope the left-turn box and other cycle-friendly improvements wind up working. I still see too many cyclists who just ride through red lights and take traffic rules into their own hands. And I wonder how diligent the cities will be to maintaining the markings and signals that are supposed to give cyclists a safe place to ride. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/25 "2018-06-21T02:04:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I rode through [this intersection](https://goo.gl/maps/3U58UzV9Nyu) in Arlington today. If you zoom out a bit, there’s a major bike path going from the upper left to the lower right, so all that traffic goes through there. Arlington seems to take that pretty seriously; the bike lanes and signals are new in the last couple years, and I’ve seen police enforcing stop signs for cyclists and such. I used to live on the Minuteman Bikepath in Arlington so I rode through that intersection 100’s of times. Frankly, I’d just ride in the rightmost travel lane to avoid the confusion from drivers. When they redid Mass Ave they completely changed that and people were very confused for a while. Riders use to rely on the fact that the right turn had a red when the go straight lanes had a green. But that’s no longer true. By now most drivers understand the new traffic pattern, but for a while it was mass (ha!) confusion. After another bike fatality in Inman Square they made some changes to make things safer for bikes, like eliminating left hand turns. But the real way to make it safer is yet to come, they’re going to curve Beacon St through the small park on the corner and force people to stop completely. The biggest changes so far are on Western Ave, where they put in a dedicated bike lane, with its own set of lights and turn lanes. [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3647468,-71.1106326,3a,75y,274.12h,97.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBMpiui2mPiSzddu_Xs981A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/26 "2018-06-21T02:12:37Z")
Huh, that’s interesting. Around my neck of the woods, there are dedicated left-turn bike lanes that look like the one in your picture, right next to the left-turn car lanes at several intersections (I’m guessing the folks in charge of that are phasing them in as roads and intersections are updated). I’ve never seen that configuration before. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/27 "2018-06-21T02:40:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I used to live on the Minuteman Bikepath in Arlington so I rode through that intersection 100’s of times. Frankly, I’d just ride in the rightmost travel lane to avoid the confusion from drivers. When they redid Mass Ave they completely changed that and people were very confused for a while. Riders use to rely on the fact that the right turn had a red when the go straight lanes had a green. But that’s no longer true. By now most drivers understand the new traffic pattern, but for a while it was mass (ha!) confusion. Yeah, I’ve been going through there for years. I used to have a pretty good system. Westbound, I’d ride to Water St., turn right, and join the path where it crossed the road. Eastbound, I’d get in the left turn lane from Mystic St. onto Mass. Ave. Considering the traffic, it’s probably good that they’ve taken some steps to control it. Still, how great would it be to have a pedestrian/bicycle bridge over the whole thing. It must have been a serious clusterfuck back when the rail line through there was still active. I also ride on part of the Alewife Linear Park west of Davis Square. [This](https://goo.gl/maps/KpD3EzLmM8n) cycle crossing (with signals) is new within the last year. > [@](#): > > After another bike fatality in Inman Square they made some changes to make things safer for bikes, like eliminating left hand turns. But the real way to make it safer is yet to come, they’re going to curve Beacon St through the small park on the corner and force people to stop completely. I think I’ve seen some plans for traffic changes there. There was gonna be a peanut-shaped rotary, but I think they ditched that design. > [@](#): > > The biggest changes so far are on Western Ave, where they put in a dedicated bike lane, with its own set of lights and turn lanes. [Google Maps](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3647468,-71.1106326,3a,75y,274.12h,97.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBMpiui2mPiSzddu_Xs981A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Interesting. Last time I was at Packard’s Corner there was a lot of work on the sidewalks along Comm. Ave. Looked like they were building the same sort of dedicated, separate bike lane. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/28 "2018-06-21T03:47:25Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > A cyclist approaching that intersection has to fully cross three lanes of traffic to get from the bike lane to the turn lane. Typically roads with that many lanes are not low-volume, 25mph roads. I bet there are a lot of non-timid cyclists that wouldn’t want to make that left in the left turn lane. I haven’t cycled in decades, but there’s no way I would now go into the car left-turn lane on a busy street. Much too dangerous. I’d just cycle across the street to a similar point (marked or not) and proceed carefully when I got the light. What’s odd is that ISTR reading some months ago is that this is NOT recommended. ::shrug:: > [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, sure. Even with a normally-functioning light, around here, it’s legal to make a left turn on an ordinary green light, so long as it’s clear. And it’s also legal (or at least, if it’s not, it might as well be, because everyone does it) to pull partially into the intersection on the green, and then complete your turn once it turns red. The last time I checked, in a similar situation in Illinois entering the intersection is legal as long as the light is green and it’s otherwise safe. After you’ve entered the intersection, you may complete your turn when safe. My understanding is that the crosswalk is considered part of the intersection, so if your front wheels are in it, you’ve entered the intersection. (I believe Illinois is the only state to have left and right turn RED arrows, meaning no turn allowed when lit.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/29 "2018-06-21T04:06:52Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > there’s no way I would now go into the car left-turn lane on a busy street. Much too dangerous. What do you perceive as the danger? You’re quite conspicuous to everyone near the intersection, and any vehicles making conflicting movements are either stopped or moving quite slowly. The thing most noncyclists or beginning cyclists seem to fear is being run down from behind—a really rare occurrence. Ironically, that leads them to behavior that’s much more dangerous, such as cycling lefthanded so they can see approaching cars; or cycling on the sidewalk. What they don’t account for is that either of those make you largely invisible to drivers making turns—and that’s not a rare occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/30 "2018-06-21T13:04:04Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > What do you perceive as the danger? You’re quite conspicuous to everyone near the intersection, and any vehicles making conflicting movements are either stopped or moving quite slowly. > > The thing most noncyclists or beginning cyclists seem to fear is being run down from behind—a really rare occurrence. True. When I take a lane for turning left, the car behind me virtually always leaves a much bigger gap between us than they would for another car. And not just for where they stop, but also when driving through the intersection. And even after, if I’ve moved into a bike lane, they usually take longer to pass me than they need to. Drivers in general are just very cautious around bicycles when they know they’re there. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/31 "2018-06-21T14:11:19Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > if you are a cyclist you still need to push The Pedestrian Crossing signal. Which are usually not accessible from the street, which means you need to dismount your bike. Even if there’s a curb cut you can ride up, there isn’t enough room to turn around & ride back down it. I’m also thinking of some of the larger intersections near me that are marked “[No Pedestrian Crossing](http://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/No-Pedestrian-Crossing-Symbol-Sign-X-R9-3a.gif)” which means there is no button to push. Also, if I move over to the left turn lane, I sit thru one light cycle; staying to the right & then pivoting your bike 90° means you need to sit thru two light cycles as you’d need to wait for the ‘from’ road to cycle (no pun intended). Personally, if I need to sit at traffic lights for too much of my ride & constantly dismount then I don’t want to ride. It was typically only an annual ride for the ‘airport loop’ because it meant going into & across the city, which meant stopping every block or two for a traffic light for a couple of miles. The ride from Point X was good, just getting to Point X sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/32 "2018-06-21T22:14:42Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > What do you perceive as the danger? You’re quite conspicuous to everyone near the intersection, and any vehicles making conflicting movements are either stopped or moving quite slowly. Only if you’re approaching a light that’s already red. If the light’s green and still has half a minute on it, then everyone’s zipping by at the speed limit, and there’s no way of getting through that without making multiple cars slow down for you, and checking that they did. > [@Spiderman](#): > > Also, if I move over to the left turn lane, I sit thru one light cycle; staying to the right & then pivoting your bike 90° means you need to sit thru two light cycles Same deal here. If the green light is on as you come up to the intersection, you go through to the other side, then wait for that first green light to change. In the sort of moderate to heavy traffic I’m used to, ‘waiting till the lights change’ is going to happen whether you’re waiting in the middle or off to the side, because ‘no oncoming traffic’ is not really a thing till about 9 in the evening ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/33 "2018-06-21T22:23:46Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Only if you’re approaching a light that’s already red. If the light’s green and still has half a minute on it, then everyone’s zipping by at the speed limit, and there’s no way of getting through that without making multiple cars slow down for you, and checking that they did. Right. For those suggesting it’s easier and safer to move into the left turn lane, I suspect you are thinking of downtown traffic with a 25 mph speed limit. The intersection in the OP is a major commuting route with a 45 mph limit (which means most cars are going 50), and you have to cross two full lanes of traffic. There aren’t gaps in the traffic where you can leisurely cut across the lanes; there is solid traffic whipping by at 30-40 mph faster than you. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/34 "2018-06-21T22:27:06Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Which are usually not accessible from the street, which means you need to dismount your bike. Even if there’s a curb cut you can ride up, there isn’t enough room to turn around & ride back down it. I’m also thinking of some of the larger intersections near me that are marked “[No Pedestrian Crossing](http://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/No-Pedestrian-Crossing-Symbol-Sign-X-R9-3a.gif)” which means there is no button to push. I can usually get to the button without having to dismount. I may have to unclip both feet and straddle the bike to back it up a bit. > [@](#): > > Also, if I move over to the left turn lane, I sit thru one light cycle; staying to the right & then pivoting your bike 90° means you need to sit thru two light cycles as you’d need to wait for the ‘from’ road to cycle (no pun intended). Personally, if I need to sit at traffic lights for too much of my ride & constantly dismount then I don’t want to ride. It was typically only an annual ride for the ‘airport loop’ because it meant going into & across the city, which meant stopping every block or two for a traffic light for a couple of miles. The ride from Point X was good, just getting to Point X sucked. I tend to think of a traffic light cycle as giving every street and lane a green light until it’s back around to where it started. You should never have to wait through two full cycles. If you catch the green light to go straight, then wait in the left-turn box until you get the next green light, you might even make the turn before the left-turn lane gets a green. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/35 "2018-06-22T03:31:25Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Also, if I move over to the left turn lane, I sit thru one light cycle; staying to the right & then pivoting your bike 90° means you need to sit thru two light cycles as you’d need to wait for the ‘from’ road to cycle (no pun intended). Personally, if I need to sit at traffic lights for too much of my ride & constantly dismount then I don’t want to ride. Constantly? How many left turns do you make on your ride? 10? 20? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/36 "2018-06-22T15:50:34Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Constantly? How many left turns do you make on your ride? 10? 20? I would easily do 40-50 miles rides & only ever unclip one foot ( stopping at a traffic light). Thinking of the two lights closest to my house, one has the pedestrian crosswalk button on the main street & there is no sidewalk there, meaning one either needs to be in the street or walk on the grass/dirt. The other is a mudpit leading up to the pedestrian crosswalk. Getting mud/grass into clipless pedals frequently means they won’t engage. If one realizes this, it’s an annoyance. If one doesn’t realize they’re not clipped in it can be dangerous, either by the foot coming off the pedal & then getting cut on the calf by the pedal as it comes around behind your leg, or the sudden, unexpected weight transfer causing a crash. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/37 "2018-06-25T20:52:58Z")
This thread is a good reminder of how lucky I am to live in a small city, where it is 100% legal to cruise through stop signs (if safe) and treat red lights like stop signs. > **[Idaho stop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop)** > > The Idaho stop is the common name for laws that allow cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. It first became law in Idaho in 1982, but was not adopted elsewhere until Delaware adopted a limited stop-as-yield law, the "Delaware Yield", in 2017. Arkansas was the second state to legalize both stop-as-yield and red light-as-stop in April 2019. Studies in Delaware and Idaho have shown significant decreases in crashes at stop-controlled intersections. > The orig... I take advantage every day commuting to and from work. I wish this law would expand to nearby states I ride in. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393/38 "2018-06-25T23:12:02Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > This thread is a good reminder of how lucky I am to live in a small city, where it is 100% legal to cruise through stop signs (if safe) and treat red lights like stop signs. > > [Idaho stop - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop) > > I take advantage every day commuting to and from work. I wish this law would expand to nearby states I ride in. Yeah, this [was proposed for CA](https://cal.streetsblog.org/2018/01/08/bill-to-allow-bikes-to-treat-stop-signs-as-yield-signs-spiked/) but failed, sadly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-turn-area-for-bicycles/816393.md?page=1)