# Left wing antisemitism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985 "2011-05-15T14:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/201 "2011-05-17T15:47:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > True. One of the common giveaways is that these people start by talking about Israel and then switch to talking about Jews. Agreed. An easy test is to substitute “Africa” for “Israel” and “Blacks” for “Jews” and see how the sentence turns out. “I have some serious concerns about many of the social and economic policies in \< Africa/Israel\>” = totally not anti-Semite “I got nuthin’ against \< blacks/Jews \>, but I hate everything about \< Africa/Israel \>. It should be destroyed and it’s people pushed into the sea/sent back where they came from” = anti-Semite The other clue is the “Gawrsh! I’m not an anti-Semite. “Semite” means “Arab” and I got nothin’ against them!!” gimmick. I’ve yet to meet someone who did that particular stunt who wasn’t an anti-Semite. (It’s the same mentality as “Yeah, I use the word “Nigger” but I only mean SOME blackies, not all of 'em. Just the worthless, no-account ones.” ) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/202 "2011-05-17T16:02:25Z")
[Here](http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/227230_183469778368634_100001168397013_414165_2937203_n.jpg) is an anti-Israel cartoon posted on Facebook by a friend of mine who is involved in far left political activism. [Here](http://www.resist.com/CARTOON%20GALLERY/KIKES/jews_image08.jpg) is a cartoon from “White Aryan Resistance” website of Tom Metzger, a neo-Nazi leader. I see this same sentiment pushed by college radicals on the left and by white nationalists. Furthermore, I really feel that to say things like, “the extermination of Palestinian children” with a straight face requires more than just _political_ opposition to Israel. Unless these same people are protesting in the same way about _every_ brutal regime in the world, they seem to be singling out Israel unfairly. “Extermination?” Who is Israel exterminating? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/203 "2011-05-17T16:05:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think another element is the fact that many on the left see support of Israel -and by extension, sympahthy for Jews - as a right-wing position, and thus position themselves in the opposite cornerr on a partisan basis. I blame the Republicans for that, actually; they made my country a wedge issue, something it hadn’t been until recent years. You think Republicans made Israel “a wedge issue”? You might want to look back at the Presidency of George H. W. Bush where he was vilified by the Democrats for publicly feuding with Yitzach Shamir and for threatening to withhold loan guarantees from Israel if they were used to build settlements. The Democrats raked him over the coals for this and Bill Clinton when running against him repeatedly attack him for it as did Bob Kerrey on the grounds that he was “insensitive” to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/204 "2011-05-17T16:16:45Z")
Alessan, I don’t think you can blame U.S. Republicans for making Israel into a “left-right” issue. Personally, I’d put the blame more on Israeli leftist parties like Peace Now who made it politically acceptable for the left wing elsewhere to champion Palestinian causes at the expense of Israeli security. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/205 "2011-05-17T16:30:42Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [Here](http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/227230_183469778368634_100001168397013_414165_2937203_n.jpg) is an anti-Israel cartoon posted on Facebook by a friend of mine who is involved in far left political activism. > > [Here](http://www.resist.com/CARTOON%20GALLERY/KIKES/jews_image08.jpg) is a cartoon from “White Aryan Resistance” website of Tom Metzger, a neo-Nazi leader. These are not equivalent. One of them contains a racist, antisemitic caricature. One of them is simply a statement about giving money to Israel. This is a phony, bogus, bullshit attempt at equvalency and is exactly what people are talking about when they say they can’t say a word about Israel without getting called antisemitic. > [@](#): > > I see this same sentiment pushed by college radicals on the left and by white nationalists. What specific sentiment are you talking about? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, I really feel that to say things like, “the extermination of Palestinian children” with a straight face requires more than just _political_ opposition to Israel. There you go again. > [@](#): > > Unless these same people are protesting in the same way about _every_ brutal regime in the world, they seem to be singling out Israel unfairly. “Extermination?” Who is Israel exterminating? They DO object to every brutal regime in the world. They DON’T single out Israel. That’s bullshit. The major difference is that we are FUNDING it in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/206 "2011-05-17T16:33:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Alessan, I don’t think you can blame U.S. Republicans for making Israel into a “left-right” issue. Personally, I’d put the blame more on Israeli leftist parties like Peace Now who made it politically acceptable for the left wing elsewhere to champion Palestinian causes at the expense of Israeli security. It is not politically acceptable to champion anything “at the expense of Israeli security.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/207 "2011-05-17T16:33:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > …politically acceptable for the left wing elsewhere to champion Palestinian causes at the expense of Israeli security. :rolleyes: Some people advocate an accommodation between Israelis and Palestinians _in order to_ protect Israeli security. Israeli leftists aren’t suicidal, and [pro-Palestinian](http://www.supportsanity.org/FAQs.html#Are%20you%20pro-Palestinian) doesn’t have to mean anti-Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/208 "2011-05-17T16:41:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > These are not equivalent. One of them contains a racist, antisemitic caricature. One of them is simply a statement about giving money to Israel. This is a phony, bogus, bullshit attempt at equvalency and is exactly what people are talking about when they say they can’t say a word about Israel without getting called antisemitic. While I agree that the cartoons are not equivalent, the notion that Israel is engaged in “exterminating Palestinian children” is, if not antisemitic, at least guilty of a cheerful disregard of reality. It offends me not because it’s anti-Semitic, but because it’s melodramatic horseshit (regardless of how sincere the underlying intent may be). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/209 "2011-05-17T16:47:40Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > It is not politically acceptable to champion anything “at the expense of Israeli security.” How I wish this were an absolute truth. But the “Peace Now” type of leftist has been very much for Israel exposing itself to danger in order to appease the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/210 "2011-05-17T16:52:19Z")
How do you make peace with an enemy without exposing yourself to some level of danger? Outside of wiping them from the face of the Earth, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/211 "2011-05-17T17:14:12Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > While I agree that the cartoons are not equivalent, the notion that Israel is engaged in “exterminating Palestinian children” is, if not antisemitic, at least guilty of a cheerful disregard of reality. > > It offends me not because it’s anti-Semitic, but because it’s melodramatic horseshit (regardless of how sincere the underlying intent may be). It may be hyperbolic, it may be manipulative, it may be inaccurate, but it isn’t _antisemitic_. Even factually wrong perceptions or allegations against Israel don’t have to be motivated by antismitism. That word is just an attempt to short circuit all debate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/212 "2011-05-17T18:44:50Z")
Here is an interesting analysis of this situation, from a US Dept. of State Report entitled _Contemporary Global Anti-Semitism_: > **[102301.pdf](https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf)** > > 509.26 KB > [@](#): > > Contemporary anti-Semitism manifests itself in overt and subtle ways, both in places where size¬able Jewish communities are located and where few Jews live. Anti-Semitic crimes range from acts of violence, including terrorist attacks against Jews, to the desecration and destruction of Jewish property such as synagogues and cemeteries. Anti-Semitic rhetoric, conspiracy theories, and other propaganda circulate widely and rapidly by satellite television, radio, and the Internet. > > Traditional forms of anti-Semitism persist and can be found across the globe. Classic anti-Semitic screeds, such as The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf, remain common¬place. Jews continue to be accused of blood libel, dual loyalty, and undue influence on government policy and the media, and the symbols and images associated with age-old forms of anti-Semitism endure. These blatant forms of anti-Semitism, often linked with Nazism and fascism, are considered unacceptable by the mainstream in the democratic nations of Western Europe, North America, and beyond, but they are embraced and employed by the extreme fringe. > > Anti-Semitism has proven to be an adaptive phenomenon. New forms of anti-Semitism have evolved. They often incorporate elements of traditional anti-Semitism. However, the distinguishing feature of the new anti-Semitism is criticism of Zionism or Israeli policy that—whether intentionally or unintentionally—has the effect of promoting prejudice against all Jews by demonizing Israel and Israelis and attributing Israel’s perceived faults to its Jewish character. > > This new anti-Semitism is common throughout the Middle East and in Muslim communities in Europe, but it is not confined to these populations. For example, various United Nations bodies are asked each year on multiple occasions to commission investigations of what often are sensational¬ized reports of alleged atrocities and other violations of human rights by Israel. Various bodies have been set up within the UN system with the sole purpose of reporting on what is assumed to be on¬going, abusive Israeli behavior. The motive for such actions may be to defuse an immediate crisis, to show others in the Middle East that there are credible means of addressing their concerns other than resorting to violence, or to pursue other legitimate ends. But the collective effect of unremitting criticism of Israel, coupled with a failure to pay attention to regimes that are demonstrably guilty of grave violations, has the effect of reinforcing the notion that the Jewish state is one of the sources, if not the greatest source, of abuse of the rights of others, and thus intentionally or not encourages anti-Semitism. > > Comparing contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is increasingly commonplace. Anti-Semitism couched as criticism of Zionism or Israel often escapes condemnation since it can be more subtle than traditional forms of anti-Semitism, and promoting anti-Semitic attitudes may not be the conscious intent of the purveyor. Israel’s policies and practices must be subject to responsible criti¬cism and scrutiny to the same degree as those of any other country. At the same time, those criticiz¬ing Israel have a responsibility to consider the effect their actions may have in prompting hatred of Jews. At times hostility toward Israel has translated into physical violence directed at Jews in gener¬al. There was, for example, a sharp upsurge in anti-Semitic incidents worldwide during the conflict between Hizballah and Israel in the summer of 2006. To my mind, analyzing whether any particular obviously-prejudiced utterance is motivated by hatred of Jews, as opposed to hatred of Israelis, or hatred of Israel as a nation, or hatred for its policies, is impossible; without a body of such utterances, it would be mere guesswork in many cases. But I don’t see that it ought to matter so very much - isn’t bigotry bad _ab initio_, whether directed against a nation, or against an ethnic group? If I demonstrate that “I hate France - I’m quite irrational on this subject” that may well be _different_ from “I hate Frenchmen” or “I hate speakers of French”, but it still is worthy of condemnation, even if I can demonstrate that my best friends are Francophones. The modern habit of allowing some types of irrational hatred to go unremarked while expressing the utmost condemnation and detestation for others makes no sense. And yet, that’s at the heart of this debate: the notion that if one were condemning Jews for “exterminating” Palestinian children, that would be _bad_, but somehow condemning _Israelis_ for doing the same is _okay_ - when, in fact, Palestinian children are _not being exterminated_ by either. What is remarkable is not this reasonably meaningless debate over what, exactly, is “antisemitic” about the attitude of (some) on the Left, it is the undoubted fact that (some) on the Left are willing to tolerate, perpetrate and spread irrational hatred directed at Israel and Israelis; the fact that in some cases this spills over into attitudes that affect Jews as an ethnicity is more or less a side-effect - and by no means the worst side-effect - of the main problem: a willingness to gullably swallow and spread anti-Israeli canards. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/213 "2011-05-17T19:06:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The modern habit of allowing some types of irrational hatred to go unremarked while expressing the utmost condemnation and detestation for others makes no sense. And yet, that’s at the heart of this debate: the notion that if one were condemning Jews for “exterminating” Palestinian children, that would be _bad_, but somehow condemning _Israelis_ for doing the same is _okay_ - when, in fact, Palestinian children are _not being exterminated_ by either. > > What is remarkable is not this reasonably meaningless debate over what, exactly, is “antisemitic” about the attitude of (some) on the Left, it is the undoubted fact that (some) on the Left are willing to tolerate, perpetrate and spread irrational hatred directed at Israel and Israelis; the fact that in some cases this spills over into attitudes that affect Jews as an ethnicity is more or less a side-effect - and by no means the worst side-effect - of the main problem: a willingness to gullably swallow and spread anti-Israeli canards. I agree with this. It isn’t anti-semitism that’s widespread on the left. Sorry if I made it seem like I thought that, because I don’t. It is, in fact, _irrational_ hatred of Israel, and a double standard against Israel. Now, just _why_ they feel that way about _Israel_ specifically…I am not sure. I think a lot of it might have to do with the fact that the right wing makes a cause out of Israel and so they want to counteract that somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/214 "2011-05-17T19:13:55Z")
Criticism of Israel is not “bigotry.” If anything it’s intended (even if you think those intentions are naive or uninformed) as a _condemnation_ of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/215 "2011-05-17T19:26:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Criticism of Israel is not “bigotry.” If anything it’s intended (even if you think those intentions are naive or uninformed) as a _condemnation_ of bigotry. Heh, and you speak for everyone who has ever pronounced “criticism” of Israel? You know their intentions? 😉 I judge “criticism” of Israel with the same standards as I do statements concerning any other country: if it is hateful (in that it is likely to manupulate its audience and inspire hatred for its target) and obviously false to the facts, it qualifies as an expression of “bigotry”. The cartoon, link posted above, is a fine example. I do not presume to understand the intentions of persons who spread ignorant, malicious, irrational and bigoted screeds. Perhaps they are all sweetness and light. Perhaps. One cannot say for sure unless one knows who they are, and can otherwise judge their motives - I’m content with what can be known: that they are spreading hateful, ignorant, and bigoted screeds (for whatever reason). Whether they are on your “side” or not really doesn’t matter - or ought not to matter. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/216 "2011-05-17T20:23:57Z")
elucidator: > [@](#): > > How do you make peace with an enemy without exposing yourself to some level of danger? Outside of wiping them from the face of the Earth, I mean. You convince them, through (non-genocidal) force if necesssary, that they will never be able to get what they want through violence. They demonstrate their acceptance of this fact by promising to stop trying said violent means. Then you sit down and negotiate a treaty that is acceptable to and enforcable by both parties. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/217 "2011-05-17T20:35:41Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > elucidator: > > You convince them, through (non-genocidal) force if necesssary, that they will never be able to get what they want through violence. They demonstrate their acceptance of this fact by promising to stop trying said violent means. Then you sit down and negotiate a treaty that is acceptable to and enforcable by both parties. People have been attempting this since at least the 1930s. You’re acting as if what you’re suggesting is something that’s never been attempted. They’re always having talks or talks about having talks and I guarantee that thirty years from now the same will be true. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/218 "2011-05-17T20:42:05Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > You convince them, through (non-genocidal) force if necesssary, that they will never be able to get what they want through violence. They demonstrate their acceptance of this fact by promising to stop trying said violent means. Then you sit down and negotiate a treaty that is acceptable to and enforcable by both parties. So both sides are still working on the convincing part? There seem to be some who still imagine that Israel can get what _it_ wants through violence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/219 "2011-05-17T22:29:07Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > You convince them, through (non-genocidal) force if necesssary, that they will never be able to get what they want through violence. They demonstrate their acceptance of this fact by promising to stop trying said violent means. Then you sit down and negotiate a treaty that is acceptable to and enforcable by both parties. And they believe you and trust your good intentions … why, exactly? :dubious: Haven’t you demonstrated clearly to them that force is the only language you understand? > [@Argent Towers](#): > > It is, in fact, irrational hatred of Israel, and a double standard against Israel. What’s irrational about hating what the Likud bloc, Netanyahu, Sharon, and by extension those who put them in power have done to destroy the possibility of a real, lasting peace in the region? Many, many Israelis hate that too. It’s easy, but lazy and destructive, to dismiss any thought you don’t happen to share, or which makes you feel uncomfortable about your own beliefs and actions, as “irrational”. But your responsibility as a citizen and a human lies elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/220 "2011-05-17T22:33:04Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > There seem to be some who still imagine that Israel can get what _it_ wants through violence. Er, yes, people familiar with the history of the region. Were it not for the use of violence they’d never have been formed or they’d have been obliterated a long time ago. As for the Palestinians, what could talking possibly get them? An independent West Bank and Gaza Strip far smaller and less able to survive then any of South Africa’s Bantustans? The Palestinians don’t want a Palestinian state, they want Palestine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=12)