# Left wing antisemitism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985 "2011-05-15T14:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/261 "2011-05-18T23:24:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So I guess that the children of illegal aliens are denied citizenship but I am trying to find where citizenship is denied based on race the way it is in Israel. Sigh. On with the nonexistent race issue again… > [@](#): > > Israel denies citizenship to babies born to Israeli citizens if their other parent is Palestinian. That is not true. The children have the option later. > [@](#): > > O really? Then why are the Israelis resisting the concept of right of return for Palestinian refugees? 😕 Because it’s ridiculous and it eliminates Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/262 "2011-05-18T23:31:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think Gaza and the West bank is a separate country from Israel and Israel is a hostile occupying force? No. I think Gaza and the West Bank are territories with no formal government. Plus there is no way you can argue that Israel is an occupying force in Gaza. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) > > Which **explicitly** denies citizenship to the children of Palestinians born in Israel even if one of the aprents is an Israeli citizen. Sorry I forgot, you dont accept wikipedia as a reliable cite: > > ^ a b Amos Schocken,Citizenship law makes Israel an apatheid state, Ha’aretz, 27 June 2008 > ^ Ben Lynfield. “Marriage law divides Israeli Arab families”. Christian Science Monitor. [Marriage law divides Israeli Arab families - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p06s03-wome.html). > ^ a b Ben Lynfield. “Arab spouses face Israeli legal purge”. The Scotsman. [http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=721352006](http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=721352006). > ^ Ilan Shahar. “Gov’t seeks to extend order that can curb Arab family reunification”. Ha’aretz English Edition. [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/793994.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/793994.html). > ^ “Israeli marriage law blocks citizenship for Palestinians”. San Francisco Chronicle. 2003-08-01. [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/01/MN110656.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/01/MN110656.DTL). > ^ “UN blasts Israeli marriage law”. BBC News. 2003-08-15. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3152651.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3152651.stm). > ^ “Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women”. Amnesty International. June 2005. [http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150372005](http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150372005). > > (these cites are from teh wiki page so someone might have just fabricated these as well, its a well oiled conspiracy) It does not _explicitly_ deny citizenship. We have proved that to you. It is not a matter of ‘a well oiled conspiracy’ so much as it is you ‘not understanding’. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/263 "2011-05-18T23:32:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > ElvisL1ves: > > Because Palestinians had Israeli-sponsored prosperity before the Intifada. Because Egypt and Jordan demonstrated that approaching Israel peacefully will lead to peaceful results. Most of all, because they don’t have the ability to destroy Israel militarily, so even if they don’t trust Israel’s good intentions, they might as well try a new tactic rather than continue lobbing the odd rocket and inviting retaliatory strikes. > > Shouldn’t the example of the few Arab leaders who laid down their arms and sought peaceful negotiations with Israel and were rewarded with peace treaties demonstrate that Israel only responds by force for force, and will negotiate peacefully when approached in peace? As I understand it, Labour and its ideals are no longer in effect in Israel. Their people have abandoned them chosen Likud and Netanyahu and their bulldozers and walls and “settlements” instead. It isn’t the Seventies anymore, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/264 "2011-05-18T23:43:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As I understand it, Labour and its ideals are no longer in effect in Israel. Their people have abandoned them chosen Likud and Netanyahu and their bulldozers and walls and “settlements” instead. It isn’t the Seventies anymore, friend. That’s a bit of an odd comment since the government that negotiated peace with Egypt in the 70s was not Labor, but a Likud government headed by a former “terrorist”. The Labor government collapsed about ten years ago and were abandoned by the Israelis when Yasser Arafat, at Camp David, after being offered virtually all of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well as financial compensation for the refugees, said no, declared the Palestinians would reject any settlement that didn’t include The Right of Return(meaning no settlement that allowed for the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state) got up and left and then started sending suicide bombers at Israel. Labor was rejected because they were seen as idiots for trusting Arafat. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/265 "2011-05-18T23:53:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you ask them what they think about other brutal regimes, I assure you they will bash them. Israel gets more attention because Israel gets a lot of our money, and because it has a much greater influence on our foreign policy. … and because, they, of all people, should know better. There was a hope, even an expectation, that their history would make that new country somehow at least better than the worst. For a good long while, that seemed to be the case, and US support naturally followed. Not so anymore, sadly. Now instead we see them _supported_, by the likes of **Argent Towers** , for simply being no worse than the Saudis. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/266 "2011-05-18T23:53:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As I understand it, Labour and its ideals are no longer in effect in Israel. Their people have abandoned them chosen Likud and Netanyahu and their bulldozers and walls and “settlements” instead. It isn’t the Seventies anymore, friend. You’re right. It\*\* isn’t\*\* the 70s. The Labor party lost its socialist identification a long time ago. Now those former Labor leaders are with center-left parties like Kadima, and they support a two state solution. And this is a Parliamentary system in which people can’t be categorized so easily…but Labor as a party is a minority now. _However._ 😕 The mess of 2006 resulted in a near even Likud v. non-Likud split in 2009, and the reason why there isn’t a Kadima government is because they couldn’t assume a coalition one because of some naysayer fringe parties. Likud wasn’t “embraced”? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/267 "2011-05-18T23:54:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s a bit of an odd comment since the government that negotiated peace with Egypt in the 70s was not Labor, but a Likud government headed by a former “terrorist”. An overbroad statement, OK, but the reference was to the ideals of peace. Can you even imagine a Begin emerging today? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/268 "2011-05-19T00:07:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > An overbroad statement, OK, but the reference was to the ideals of peace. Can you even imagine a Begin emerging today? So you are saying that Israelis don’t want peace and Palestinians do? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/269 "2011-05-19T00:21:07Z")
More broad statements: Both are doing what they think they have to do to ensure their own survival and security. Neither currently has the vision to understand, and courage to do, what it takes to make it happen on any other basis than violence, though - which ensures it won’t happen at all. So, can \*you \*imagine a Begin emerging today? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/270 "2011-05-19T00:23:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > … and because, they, of all people, should know better. There was a hope, even an expectation, that their history would make that new country somehow at least better than the worst. For a good long while, that seemed to be the case, and US support naturally followed. Not so anymore, sadly. Now instead we see them _supported_, by the likes of **Argent Towers** , for simply being no worse than the Saudis. People always say this. That the Jews should “know better,” presumably because they had been so oppressed. Actually, I think the Jews of Israel have shown remarkable _restraint_ in their dealings with their Arab enemies which ultimately resulted in the situation we have today. Any other people in the same situation would have just thrown all the Arabs out, conquered all the territory, and said “fuck you if you don’t like it.” This is how all other countries on the planet have operated in their history. Israel has _given up_ shitloads of land to Arabs over the past half century. _After_ _winning_ wars that _Arabs started._ Would anyone else in the world do something like this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/271 "2011-05-19T00:37:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So by that logic if the arab states fight another war and win then its “sorry Israelis, you guys lost” haven’t the rules changed a bit since WWII? If they win, yes. What has changed, though, is that it’s unlikely NATO or the West would allow them to win. Remember Iraq and Kuwait, and witness Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/272 "2011-05-19T01:11:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > People always say this. That the Jews should “know better,” presumably because they had been so oppressed. Actually, I think the Jews of Israel have shown remarkable _restraint_ in their dealings with their Arab enemies which ultimately resulted in the situation we have today. Any other people in the same situation would have just thrown all the Arabs out, conquered all the territory, and said “fuck you if you don’t like it.” This is how all other countries on the planet have operated in their history. > > Israel has _given up_ shitloads of land to Arabs over the past half century. _After_ _winning_ wars that _Arabs started._ Would anyone else in the world do something like this? A+. Jews should always _know better_. Fuck _that_. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/273 "2011-05-19T01:14:12Z")
So, to summarize the reason why left-wing anti-Israel people feel the way they do, specifically directed at Israel: 1. Israel has defenders in America, whereas other regimes doing brutal shit do not. 2. The Jews should know better. Makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/274 "2011-05-19T01:16:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > More broad statements: Both are doing what they think they have to do to ensure their own survival and security. Except one recognizes the other’s right to _existence_. > [@](#): > > Neither currently has the vision to understand, and courage to do, what it takes to make it happen on any other basis than violence, though - which ensures it won’t happen at all. Half of Israel’s Parliament and most of the population want a two state solution, like, yesterday. It’s not that the rest deny it – the # of Jews who think the whole land is theirs for the taking is slim - but they are worried about certain cities that have since flourished for the last 40 years that could be returned if it falls on the 67 line. Not to mention Jerusalem. > [@](#): > > So, can \*you \*imagine a Begin emerging today? [/QUOTE] Isn’t his name Netanyahu? :o No, seriously - in regards to what? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/275 "2011-05-19T01:22:44Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So, to summarize the reason why left-wing anti-Israel people feel the way they do, specifically directed at Israel: > > 1. Israel has defenders in America, whereas other regimes doing brutal shit do not. > 2. The Jews should know better. > > Makes sense to me. 😉 [A Progressive Case for Israel](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-sheffey/progressives-should-suppo_b_842259.html) add: > [@](#): > > In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed – three years before Israel controlled any of the West Bank. It’s not hard to imagine what the “Palestine” was that the “organization” wanted to “liberate.” There were no settlements and there was no “occupation” in 1964. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/276 "2011-05-19T01:28:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > So, to summarize the reason why left-wing anti-Israel people feel the way they do, specifically directed at Israel: > > 1. Israel has defenders in America, whereas other regimes doing brutal shit do not. > 2. The Jews should know better. > > Makes sense to me. I offered some other reasons in post #228. Israel is just more known than other countries where people be getting killed and shit. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/277 "2011-05-19T01:28:40Z")
Well, obviously. I regularly see pictures posted on Facebook (including as peoples’ profile pictures) of the entire map of Israel filled in with the Palestinian flag. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/278 "2011-05-19T01:43:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So, can \*you \*imagine a Begin emerging today? Er yes. Begin would NEVER have shaken hands with Arafat for one thing. Moreover, can you imagine Begin, the man who’s whole life was defined by the Holocaust embracing a Holocaust Denier the way current Israeli leaders have been willing to negotiate with and praise Mahmoud Abbas. Finally, you’re completely ignoring the fact that Ehud Barak offered a far, far better deal than anyone would have imagined in 2000(such a generous deal that he was condemned by Leah Rabin for doing so) and the response of the Palestinians was to reject the deal because it allowed for the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. That’s why the Labor Party collapsed. Because the Palestinian leadership revealed itself to be negotiating in bad faith and to be completely unwilling to accept any deal that would allow for Israel’s continued existence. When one side is saying the only thing we will accept is for you to commit suicide you can’t expect negotiations to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/279 "2011-05-19T01:59:38Z")
Not to mention that Begin also destroyed Iraq’s nuclear reactor. He thought it was a threat to Israel, so he had it bombed to smithereens. Could you imagine how something like that would play out today? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/280 "2011-05-19T02:02:16Z")
Here’s an American leftist with an [anti-Jewish sentiment](http://newsone.com/entertainment/newsonestaff2/cornel-west-obama-free-black-men/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=15)