# Left wing antisemitism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985 "2011-05-15T14:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/301 "2011-05-19T15:44:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, you can put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave. It worked for us and it looks like its working for them too… for a while at least. > > [Israeli army in deadly confrontations with pro-Palestinian protesters | Israel | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/15/israeli-army-involved-bloody-confrontations) You did note that the “reservations” in question in this article were in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon … right? And that the Palestinians were trying to “leave” _into_ Israel, across the border? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/302 "2011-05-19T15:46:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The modern habit of allowing some types of irrational hatred to go unremarked while expressing the utmost condemnation and detestation for others makes no sense. And yet, that’s at the heart of this debate: the notion that if one were condemning Jews for “exterminating” Palestinian children, that would be _bad_, but somehow condemning _Israelis_ for doing the same is _okay_ - when, in fact, Palestinian children are _not being exterminated_ by either. > > What is remarkable is not this reasonably meaningless debate over what, exactly, is “antisemitic” about the attitude of (some) on the Left, it is the undoubted fact that (some) on the Left are willing to tolerate, perpetrate and spread irrational hatred directed at Israel and Israelis; the fact that in some cases this spills over into attitudes that affect Jews as an ethnicity is more or less a side-effect - and by no means the worst side-effect - of the main problem: a willingness to gullably swallow and spread anti-Israeli canards. I agree that when we criticize Israel we have to bear in mind there is some dry anti-semetic powder that is waiting for a spark to ignite it. But we similarly can’t give israel a pass on obviously offensive behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/303 "2011-05-19T16:01:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’ve had this discussion with FinnAgain and you seem to be engaging in some oversimplification as well. Those folks in Beirut and Damascus owned much of the land that could be owned in fee simple and therefore sold to the Jewish land fund. But that was a small percentage of the land in Palestine, like 6% of the land in Palestine. Much of the land was subject to communal ownership and usufructs which were all owned by Palestinians. Of course there was also a lot of unarable unusable land that noone really had (or wanted) a claim to that Israelis have turned into usable land (and even under Ottoman law, I believe that would have conveyed some ownership rights to someone who turned wilderness into arable land). But without a doubt there was significant land that belonged to the palestinians and your position on the land issue makes me think that you aren’t as neutral as you claim, despite your disapproval of the Balfour declaration. No, that’s not remotely correct. I don’t know where you’re getting your information from, but you needto find better sources. Most of the Jewish-owned land in 1948 had been purchased from absentee landlords. Few of the Arab Fellahin owned the land they were on. Many owned the olive trees on the land though which caused quite a few problems. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/304 "2011-05-19T17:58:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Um, what? Israel grants citizenship to all born within its borders. > > As for citizenship based on ethnicity rather than location of birth, see the following list: > > [Jus sanguinis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis) That hasn’t been true since 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/305 "2011-05-19T18:00:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > A whole bunch as mentioned. > > Can we assume you are outraged that the US is allied with Germany and will now start wildly condemning them? Wildly condemning? BTW, where is the “whole bunch” that are doping that right now? I saw one cite to Germany doing it sometime in the past. Israel is doing it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/306 "2011-05-19T18:03:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > (such as your notion that Arabs are denied citizenship-by-birth in Israel - it simply isn’t so). I am happy to have enlightened you. This is not the first time this has been mentioned. I have had extensive debates with Finn regarding his justification for this practice. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/307 "2011-05-19T18:08:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri your claims regarding the events in questions are clearly false. > > I never claimed the State Department was Arabist. Furthermore don’t try to blame google for your own fuckups. > > You insisted for several posts that Albright was Jewish because her parents were even though she was raised a Christian and never even learned of her parents original religious beliefs until adulthood. > > Now, you’re admitting that as far as you’re concerned Jews can’t be sympathetic to Palestinians. > > Dude, piece of advice. When you’re in a hole stop digging. > > Also, I’m amused that you’re obviously so worked up about Israel even though, by your own admission, you refuse to read anything about the subject except wikipedia, while not getting at all outraged about Germany’s refusal to grant citizenship to children born in it’s borders. > > In short, it’s not the treatment of Muslims you’re concerned about, but the behavior of Jews. Are you sure you’re not at least related to Finn, maybe you went to teh same school of debate? Your method of argument is really similar. You are latching onto a really inconsequential point and trying to make hay out of it and reading all sorts of things into the stuff other people say. the similarity is uncanny. So what about that citizenship law that you were SOOOOO sure didn’t exist? Does the fact that this escpaed you mean we can’t take you seriously on the issue of israel? Because, obviously being wrong about something like that discredits you forevermore… amirite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/308 "2011-05-19T18:11:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Of course it is. > > Wait - what do \*you \*think would happen? I think the US would step in. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/309 "2011-05-19T18:16:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri, I’m also a bit confused? > > Are you under the impression that the children of Israeli Jewish citizens can become Lebanese, Syrian etc if they’re born there? > > If so, you’re wrong. In fact, Israeli citizens can’t even enter most of those countries. > > Should we assume that you’re outraged by this. So if an Israeli marries a Lebanese and has a child in lebanon, then that child will be denied citizenship and be removed from the country at age 12 while the child of a Lebanese parent and a non Israeli parent will be eligible for citizenship? Cite please, because this is all I could find and Lebanese natinality laws seem sexist but does not seem to target the children of Israeli parents versus Turkish parents. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/310 "2011-05-19T18:18:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri, you’ll notice that German law you’re defending deliberately excludes any children born prior to 2000. Did you read the whole article? I thought there was a transition rule taht applied the new law to anyone that would have been eligible under the new law as long as they file for citizenship by a certain date. > [@](#): > > I’d recommend actually reading books on the subject rather than making yourself look foolish by simply regurgitating wikipedia as if it was a remotely reliable source. I stand by my position taht wikipedia creates a rebuttable presumption. I can use it as a cite and unless you can prove it wrong, its good. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/311 "2011-05-19T18:28:09Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Trust me. This stuff is _messy_. You want to box it up in a shiny genocidal bow, whatever. It makes me wonder if you really believe all of the stuff you post or if you just don’t care to think critically. No, I think you are going to great pains to make excuses for Israel’s behaviour. I understand the issue of communes who only want jewish neighbors. And while this is not analogous to white couthern communities who wanted to keep out blacks with restrictive covenants, from an American perspective, its seems discriminatory but I can see the distinction between a communal jewish setting and restricitive covenants used by racists to keep their neighborhood white. However we are not talking SOLELY about communes or kibbutzes, we are talking about much broader restrictions. I particularly see a retarded cousin of tu quoque by saying, why are you so bothered by israel and not devoting your attention to shit going on in some neighboring arab country (or germany) where they do stuff that is just as bad or worse. Its not even “you too” its “well, what about that guy over there?” ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/312 "2011-05-19T18:30:17Z")
It’s still a valid question to ask. Why do all these people, who have _no personal connection whatsoever_ to _anything_ that goes on in Palestine, make an issue over Israel, as opposed to the many other countries also doing objectionable things? Why Israel? Is it really just because Israel supposedly has defenders in the US and because “the Jews should know better?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/313 "2011-05-19T18:35:33Z")
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:260, topic:581985”] > [@](#): > > Possibly - it’s not automatic. They would be eligible by virtue of their marriage (and some residency requirement) but they would be eligible. Not true for the Palestinian spouse of an Israeli citizen, that spouse would never be able to get citizenship under the current law. > [@](#): > > Depending on where they were born and such. If you are born to an Israeli citizen unless your other parent is a Palestinian. This rule only extends for one generation for children born outside of Israel but it applies evenly to all Israeli citizens unless they marry a palestinian. > [@](#): > > Depends. Stop confusing American law with Israeli law. WTF are you talking about. Half a dozen poster claimed that this law doesn’t exist and now, instead of just saying “oh shit, I didn’t know that” people are saying well, thats not taht bad and besides Lebanon does worse without providing any evidence that Lebanon actually does anything like this. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/314 "2011-05-19T18:36:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s still a valid question to ask. Why do all these people, who have _no personal connection whatsoever_ to _anything_ that goes on in Palestine, make an issue over Israel, as opposed to the many other countries also doing objectionable things? Why Israel? Is it really just because Israel supposedly has defenders in the US and because “the Jews should know better?” Open a thread on that topic. That’s not what this one is about. This one is about erm…deflecting. Which of course, makes it totally different to the 3,217 threads we’ve had on Israel before. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/315 "2011-05-19T18:38:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Sigh. On with the nonexistent race issue again… When someone gets technical with the whole “well jews aren’t a race” on either side of teh argument, they are frequently avoiding an issue. > [@](#): > > That is not true. The children have the option later. They do not have that option if one of their parents were palestinian. > [@](#): > > 😕 Because it’s ridiculous and it eliminates Israel? You said:"If you’re talking about the occupied territories your statement makes little sense because those Palestinians very much do not consider themselves residents of Israel and have no interest in being Israeli citizens. " If that is the case, then why the fuck would Isael care about a right of return if these Palestinians have no interest in becoming israeli citizens? Perhaps I should have been more obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/316 "2011-05-19T18:39:31Z")
Yes, I contend again that there is something about Israel specifically that gets people riled up to the point of having endless pages after pages and threads that go on forever, repeated over and over. There has to be something. Why don’t we ever have discussions this involved and this heated about goings-on in any other country? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/317 "2011-05-19T18:46:52Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No. I think Gaza and the West Bank are territories with no formal government. Plus there is no way you can argue that Israel is an occupying force in Gaza. > > It does not _explicitly_ deny citizenship. We have proved that to you. It is not a matter of ‘a well oiled conspiracy’ so much as it is you ‘not understanding’. WTF are you talking about. Where have you proven what you claim? If you are a Palestinian and you marry an Israeli, you cannot apply for citizenship based on your marriage (unlike anyone else in the world) and if you are born in Israel and one of your paretns are palestinian, you cannot gain citizenship by virte of being born in Israel unlike any other baby born in israel. How much more explicit does it get? I see this as an attempt to suppress the growth rate of the arab Israeli population. The basis of the law is not virulently racist, it is demographic and discriminatory attempt to maintain the Jewish nature of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/318 "2011-05-19T19:04:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you sure you’re not at least related to Finn, maybe you went to teh same school of debate? Your method of argument is really similar. You are latching onto a really inconsequential point and trying to make hay out of it and reading all sorts of things into the stuff other people say. the similarity is uncanny. > > So what about that citizenship law that you were SOOOOO sure didn’t exist? Does the fact that this escpaed you mean we can’t take you seriously on the issue of israel? Because, obviously being wrong about something like that discredits you forevermore… amirite? Damuri I never made any claims about the Citizens law you claim I was “soooooo sure didn’t exist.” I can’t tell you to stop lying about me due to board rules so I’ll ask you to stop making factually incorrect statements about me, and if you insist on continuing to do so, please work on your spelling. Also, you’re making yourself look like an idiot by moronically continuing to imply that I’m a sock of Finn’s. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/319 "2011-05-19T19:09:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There is antisemitism in some factions on the left and it always comes back to Israel. The most common sentiment tends to go like this: ‘Israel has too much influence on U.S. foreign policy, and Jews stand behind Israel uncritically, which allows this to continue.’ You can make a rational case for the first part, but once you cross into the realm of “AIPAC controls U.S. foreign policy and everyone who says anything about it is branded an antisemite,” then you’re basically voicing a Jewish conspiracy sentiment. Jews in the U.S. tend to lean left politically and the left is generally more critical of Israel than the right. But criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic at all, and most U.S. Jews don’t hesitate to criticize Israel’s actions even if perhaps they are sympathetic to its history and circumstances… Things that make you go hmmmm… [**Jewish Donors Warn Obama on Israel**](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509104576331661918527154.html) > [@](#): > > **Jewish donors and fund-raisers are warning the Obama re-election campaign** that the president is at risk of losing financial support because of concerns about his handling of Israel. > > \ > > Some Jewish donors say **Mr. Obama has pushed Israeli leaders too hard to halt construction of housing settlements in disputed territory** , a longstanding element of U.S. policy. > > \ > > Robert Copeland, a Virginia Beach, Va., developer, who has given large donations to many Democrats, has already decided he won’t vote for Mr. Obama in 2012. “I’m very disappointed with him,” he said. “ **His administration has failed in Israel. They degraded the Israeli people**.” > Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (D., Fla.), chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, said the speech on Sunday should help set the record straight. “ **There’s nothing like hearing it straight from the president of the United States—his expression that he is strongly pro-Israel**.” > > \ > > Some of the misgivings among Jewish supporters can be traced to specific incidents that resonated in the Jewish community. **Last year, for example, Israeli media suggested Mr. Obama had snubbed Mr. Netanyahu and an Israeli delegation by leaving a White House meeting early**. > > The White House and Israeli officials disputed that characterization. But the incident left a lasting impression. “It was a snub,” said former New York Mayor Ed Koch, who campaigned for Mr. Obama in 2008. “ **My feeling was that the president was hostile to Israel**.” > > \ > > Still, Republicans see an opening. In April, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney told a gathering of the Republican Jewish Coalition that Mr. Obama should have delivered criticism of Israel’s settlement policy privately. **And last year, a poll by McLaughlin & Associates, a Republican polling firm, found that 46% of American Jews said they would consider voting for someone other than Mr. Obama**. – bolding mine. Seems to me US Presidents need to do a lot of tap dancing when it comes to saying/doing anything remotely critical of Israel. Or else… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/320 "2011-05-19T19:12:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, you are simply wrong in this. Or do you think you know the law better than a Palestinian lawyer? > > To quote again from your own link, > > To repeat: > > Simply repeating over and over again factually wrong information isn’t very effective. There is no “racist” denial of citizenship to Arabs born in Israel, even if one parent isn’t a citizen. It is simply not so. OK so you acknowledge that the palestinian spouses of Israelis citizens are denied Israeli citizenship unlike any other spouse of israeli citizens and now you are taking issue with the treatment of the children. Its possible I am wrong. I was quoting this page: > **[Israeli apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy#Marriage_law_as_example_of_apartheid)** > > Israeli apartheid is a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories and to a lesser extent in Israel proper.\[a\] This system is characterized by near-total physical separation between the Palestinian and the Israeli settler population of the West Bank, as well as the judicial separation that governs both communities, which discriminates against the Palestinians in a wide range of ways. Israel also discriminates against Palestinian re... The law does not enable the acquisition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage.[39] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age they are required to emigrate. This is cited to a newpaper article: [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-imposes-racist-marriage-law-588637.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-imposes-racist-marriage-law-588637.html) I looked at the actual law [http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship\_law.htm](http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship_law.htm) and it does nto make reference to children. The 12 year old reference as near as i can tell is an exclusion that permits the Palestinian parent of an israeli born child to remain in israel until the child’s 12th birthday. It looks like the newspaper misread the law. So I take back everything i said about the children of Palestinian. Now we are only dealing with denying citizenship to Paelstinian spouses of Israeli citizens, which is still bad but not as egregious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=17)