# Left wing antisemitism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985 "2011-05-15T14:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/321 "2011-05-19T19:20:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Did you read the whole article? I thought there was a transition rule taht applied the new law to anyone that would have been eligible under the new law as long as they file for citizenship by a certain date. Sigh, I can’t believe you’re continuing to make yourself look like a massive hypocrite by defending Germany. There are around four million ethnic Turks living in Germany, the overwhelming majority of whom were born there. In fact many have lived there for at least two generations. Recently Germany did yield to international pressure and give those Turks born in Germany the ability to apply for citizenship, but they had to specifically renounce their nationality and declare themselves to be “fully German”. Basically, this would be the equivalent of Israel saying Palestinians could immigrate to Israel and become Israel citizens if they renounced being Palestinian and converted to Judaism, which of course, they already can. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/322 "2011-05-19T19:30:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if an Israeli marries a Lebanese and has a child in lebanon, then that child will be denied citizenship and be removed from the country at age 12 while the child of a Lebanese parent and a non Israeli parent will be eligible for citizenship? > > Cite please, because this is all I could find and Lebanese natinality laws seem sexist but does not seem to target the children of Israeli parents versus Turkish parents. Damuri, you really have no idea what the region is like do you. How could an Israeli citizen and a Lebanese citizen get married and have a child in Lebanon? Israeli citizens aren’t allowed in Lebanon. In fact, anyone entering Lebanon with an Israel stamp on it gets stopped from entering. That’s why the State Department recommends Americans in the region get two different passports. So no, Israeli citizens can’t become Lebanese citizens, or at least Jewish Israelis can’t. It’s probably a different story with the Arab Israelis. Nor is Lebanon the only country in the region prohibiting Israeli citizens entry. Qatar doesn’t allow Israeli tennis players to compete in their tennis tournaments and has forbidden soccer teams with Israeli citizens from entering. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/323 "2011-05-19T19:38:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You did note that the “reservations” in question in this article were in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon … right? And that the Palestinians were trying to “leave” _into_ Israel, across the border? Yeah I saw that. You saw the part where they were shooting them right? I think the Palestinian argument would be more compelling if they weren’t throwing rocks but I would be equally upset if our border patrol started killing civilians who were trying to cross our borders. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/324 "2011-05-19T19:48:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah I saw that. You saw the part where they were shooting them right? > > I think the Palestinian argument would be more compelling if they weren’t throwing rocks but I would be equally upset if our border patrol started killing civilians who were trying to cross our borders. Yes, you’re right. If a mob of hundreds of Mexicans calling for the destruction of America crossed the border and attacked the border patrol(which is how the events are described in the Guardian) then the border patrol probably would not respond with bullets and teargas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/325 "2011-05-19T20:04:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, that’s not remotely correct. I don’t know where you’re getting your information from, but you needto find better sources. > > Most of the Jewish-owned land in 1948 had been purchased from absentee landlords. > > Few of the Arab Fellahin owned the land they were on. > > Many owned the olive trees on the land though which caused quite a few problems. What percentage of Palestine do you think was owned by Jews in 1948? I think the number is 6% > **[Palestinian vs Jewish Land Ownership Per District, 1945 - Palestine Remembered](https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story573.html)** > > Palestine Maps: Palestinian vs Jewish Land Ownership Per District, 1945 - . This article says it was about a third more than that so perhaps 8 or 9% [http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html](http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html) A few more maps: [http://www.passia.org/palestine\_facts/MAPS/Landownership.html](http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/Landownership.html) > **[Jewish Owned Land as of 1947 - Palestine Remembered](https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story571.html)** > > As of 1947, Jews owned 7% of Palestine's lands, & after the 1948 war 80% of the Palestinian people were DISPOSSESSED of their homes, farms, & businesses. Detailed accounting of Jewish land purchase in Palestine. The issue of land ownership is not as simple as you make it out. As this article pionts out [http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html](http://www.beki.org/landlaw.html) there were several forms of real property interests. Mulk is what we allunderstand asw fee simple and this was pretty much the only form of land that could be sold to non-muslims. Another form of interest in real property was called Miri and this took several forms from communal ownership (land owned by a village) to individual usufructs that could be passed down to heirs but could not be sold to strangers. As the article points out, Miri constituted the vast majority of real property interests. The third major type of land was Mawat, wilderness, land that could be converted to Miri through cultivation or given as Mulk by the Sultan. " Mīrī included “by far the largest portion of the landed property in Palestine.” So if you restrict the concept of ownership to mulk, then yeah, almost no Palestinians owned Mulk because it was designed to be owned by non-muslims but the largest portion of the usable land in Palestine was Miri and Palestinian muslims had the usufructs to that land. If you think that communal ownership doesn’t really count or that a usufruct that can be passed down to your son’s doesn’t really count as ownership then I guess you would be right but its hardly as simple as you seem to portray. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/326 "2011-05-19T20:13:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh, I can’t believe you’re continuing to make yourself look like a massive hypocrite by defending Germany. > > There are around four million ethnic Turks living in Germany, the overwhelming majority of whom were born there. In fact many have lived there for at least two generations. > > Recently Germany did yield to international pressure and give those Turks born in Germany the ability to apply for citizenship, but they had to specifically renounce their nationality and declare themselves to be “fully German”. > > Basically, this would be the equivalent of Israel saying Palestinians could immigrate to Israel and become Israel citizens if they renounced being Palestinian and converted to Judaism, which of course, they already can. The CURRENT law requires renouncing other citizenship, how is the transition rule any different. How in the world is the transition rule (which you apparently didn’t know existed or deliberately neglected to mention) asking the Turks to renounce citizenship and calling themselves Germans like asking palestinians to convert to judaism? Just admit when you’re wrong, do it long enough and you might gain some credibility some day… credibility is earned. not by being correct all the time but by being correctable. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/327 "2011-05-19T20:15:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK so you acknowledge that the palestinian spouses of Israelis citizens are denied Israeli citizenship unlike any other spouse of israeli citizens and now you are taking issue with the treatment of the children. Its possible I am wrong. I was quoting this page: > > [Israeli apartheid - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy#Marriage_law_as_example_of_apartheid) > > The law does not enable the acquisition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage.[39] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age they are required to emigrate. > > This is cited to a newpaper article: > > [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-imposes-racist-marriage-law-588637.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-imposes-racist-marriage-law-588637.html) > > I looked at the actual law [http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship\_law.htm](http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/citizenship_law.htm) and it does nto make reference to children. The 12 year old reference as near as i can tell is an exclusion that permits the Palestinian parent of an israeli born child to remain in israel until the child’s 12th birthday. It looks like the newspaper misread the law. > > So I take back everything i said about the children of Palestinian. Now we are only dealing with denying citizenship to Paelstinian spouses of Israeli citizens, which is still bad but not as egregious. Well, that’s a relief. We make progress. Slow and painful, but it is there. Again, I’ll point out that in Germany, actual children born in Germany were denied citizenship based on their Turkish ethnicity - in short, the Germans were doing exactly what you (incorrectly, you now acknowledge) accused Israelis of doing! Yet, accusations of Germany as an “aparthied state” are few and far between - compared with similar accusations directed at Israel. This is the sort of double-standards based on false information which is extremely frustrating. Yes, there is a legitmate debate about whether Israeli denial of citizenship to Palestinians based on “family unification” grounds is legitimate or not - but look how hard it was to even get to the point at which we could discuss the real, actual issue, obscured as it was by false-to-the-facts (and highly inflammatory) claims about ‘racist’ denial of citizenship to arab kiddies! There are, in fact, all sorts of real concerns about the treatment of arabs in Israel (to mention but two - the allocation of educational resources is highly uneven to the detriment of arab citizens and the provision of benefits to army veterans may, it can be argued, discriminate against arabs). But these are the sort of issues that many countries experience - including such “paragons” as my own country, Canada (see its treatment of first nations). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/328 "2011-05-19T20:16:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, you’re right. If a mob of hundreds of Mexicans calling for the destruction of America crossed the border and attacked the border patrol(which is how the events are described in the Guardian) then the border patrol probably would not respond with bullets and teargas. You’re painting a picture entirely different than the one being painted by the press. Why not make them zombie ninjas while youa re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/329 "2011-05-19T20:26:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah I saw that. You saw the part where they were shooting them right? > > I think the Palestinian argument would be more compelling if they weren’t throwing rocks but I would be equally upset if our border patrol started killing civilians who were trying to cross our borders. Sigh. I’m not claiming that shooting at or tear gassing a mob of rock-wielding people attempting to crash the border is a good thing (though I question whether attacking a border outpost anywhere would produce a different response), but rather your charactrization of the incident, to quote: > [@](#): > > Well, you can put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave. It worked for us and it looks like its working for them too… for a while at least. The “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave” implies the Israelis are, literally, imprisioning these protesters, and murdering them when they attempt to escape - which I think everyone would acknowledge is _really bad behaviour_. However, it is the opposite of what is happening here - a mob is attacking the border. While shooting at or gassing a mob attacking your border may well be objectionable behaviour, I think pretty well everyone would acknowledge it isn’t anywhere near as bad as imprisoning folks and killing them if they attempt to escape. Again, there is this tendency to portray Israeli acts in the worst possible light, even if it is not true to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/330 "2011-05-19T20:44:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The CURRENT law requires renouncing other citizenship, how is the transition rule any different. How in the world is the transition rule (which you apparently didn’t know existed or deliberately neglected to mention) asking the Turks to renounce citizenship and calling themselves Germans like asking palestinians to convert to judaism? > > Just admit when you’re wrong, do it long enough and you might gain some credibility some day… credibility is earned. not by being correct all the time but by being correctable. Damuri if you’re going to lecture me about being “credible” could you please work on your spelling and capitalization. If you’re going to insult me please do so properly. Moreover, yes telling the children of Turkish immigrants born in Germany they can only become German citizens if they formally renounce being Turkish and declare themselves “full Germans” would be like telling Arabs born in Israel they can only be citizens if they apply for it and formally renounce being Palestinian and making them convert to Judaism is certainly comparable to making ethnic Turks declare themselves full Germans. Why do you think most of Germany’s Turks have rejected this disgusting racist law which you apparently embrace. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/331 "2011-05-19T20:49:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re painting a picture entirely different than the one being painted by the press. Why not make them zombie ninjas while youa re at it? Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired. You should work on them. Please tell me you’re not upset at Malthus and I revealing how you blatantly mischaracterized what was in the article. I invite everyone to check the link to see just how badly Damuri misrepresented it. Also you appear to be conceding that if a mob attempted to cross the border and attack the border patrol the border patrol would respond with force. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/332 "2011-05-19T20:53:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, that’s a relief. We make progress. Slow and painful, but it is there. > > Again, I’ll point out that in Germany, actual children born in Germany were denied citizenship based on their Turkish ethnicity - in short, the Germans were doing exactly what you (incorrectly, you now acknowledge) accused Israelis of doing! > > Yet, accusations of Germany as an “aparthied state” are few and far between - compared with similar accusations directed at Israel. Well fuck Geramny for that policy as well. Anyone want to take the other side? No? Well, that’s why there’s not a lot of threads about it. > [@](#): > > This is the sort of double-standards based on false information which is extremely frustrating. Yes, there is a legitmate debate about whether Israeli denial of citizenship to Palestinians based on “family unification” grounds is legitimate or not - but look how hard it was to even get to the point at which we could discuss the real, actual issue, obscured as it was by false-to-the-facts (and highly inflammatory) claims about ‘racist’ denial of citizenship to arab kiddies! How many times do you want me to admit the mistake? There was nothing nefarious about my position. I read the wiki article and I read the cite in the cite to the newspaper article in the wiki article and it confirmed the the position. It could have been corrected pages ago but I had to look up the law myself and read it to figure out where the wiki article and the supporting newspaper article went wrong. Still the fact remains that Israel restricts naturalization through marriage to Palestinians alone. Like I said still bad but not as egregious as denying citizenship to people born in israel based on their parentage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/333 "2011-05-19T20:55:02Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s still a valid question to ask. Why do all these people, who have _no personal connection whatsoever_ to _anything_ that goes on in Palestine, make an issue over Israel, as opposed to the many other countries also doing objectionable things? Why Israel? Is it really just because Israel supposedly has defenders in the US and because “the Jews should know better?” For me its a combination of things. Some of it is the neocon agenda. Some of it is the violence created there spilling onto our shores. Some of it is the injustice to the Palestinians. Some of it is the rabidity of its defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/334 "2011-05-19T21:01:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, yes telling the children of Turkish immigrants born in Germany they can only become German citizens if they formally renounce being Turkish and declare themselves “full Germans” would be like telling Arabs born in Israel they can only be citizens if they apply for it and formally renounce being Palestinian and making them convert to Judaism is certainly comparable to making ethnic Turks declare themselves full Germans. > > Why do you think most of Germany’s Turks have rejected this disgusting racist law which you apparently embrace. In America you have to renounce any other citizenship before you can become an American citizen. Perhaps its a matter of perspective but renouncing old citizenship before acquiring a new one never seemed disgusting and racist to me, YMMV. I had to do this when I naturalized and I don’t see why this is an unreasonable request. Why should I be able to keep mental reservations about what nation I am a citizen of and where my loyalties lie before I can call myself a citizen of that country? I know we make the Turks who emigrate here do exactly that and I have not heard cries of racism over it. Short answer is taht as long as they have the same requirement for everyone and don’t single out the Turks for this treatment and there is no discrimination in intent or effect, the fact that Turks might find it offensive is not really Germany’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/335 "2011-05-19T21:11:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sigh. I’m not claiming that shooting at or tear gassing a mob of rock-wielding people attempting to crash the border is a good thing (though I question whether attacking a border outpost anywhere would produce a different response), but rather your charactrization of the incident, to quote: > > The “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave” implies the Israelis are, literally, imprisioning these protesters, and murdering them when they attempt to escape - which I think everyone would acknowledge is _really bad behaviour_. > > However, it is the opposite of what is happening here - a mob is attacking the border. While shooting at or gassing a mob attacking your border may well be objectionable behaviour, I think pretty well everyone would acknowledge it isn’t anywhere near as bad as imprisoning folks and killing them if they attempt to escape. > > Again, there is this tendency to portray Israeli acts in the worst possible light, even if it is not true to the facts. Also, comparisons to the Mexican border are irrelevant, because it’s a border with a friendly nation. Israel, OTOH, is at \*war \*with Syria and Lebanon, which mean it is fully within its rights to kill anyone attempting to cross the frontier. Have you noticed that Israel doesn’t shoot people crossing from Jordan and Egypt? That’s because we have peace treaties with those two countries. As a soldier, I’ve patrolled both the Lebanese and the Jordanian borders, and I can tell you that the rules of engagement for the two areas were \*radically \*different. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/336 "2011-05-19T21:19:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well fuck Geramny for that policy as well. Anyone want to take the other side? No? Well, that’s why there’s not a lot of threads about it. The reason there is not a lot of discussion about the matter is that few know about it, and even fewer care. It isn’t the case that everyone knows about the situation, and are all unanimous in their opinion, so there is no controversy. In fact, earlier in this very thread you threw down the challenge: > [@](#): > > So Europe will deny citizenship to babies born within their borders based solely on their race? Which country does that? > > Better yet, which country will deny citizenship to babies born within their borders who have one citizen as a parent because of the race or nationality of the other parent? Obviously, you would not have asked the question, had you known about the German situation. You are not unique in this: few, aside from those affected, appear to; apparently it isn’t a big deal, engaging multiple sessions of the UN General Council, or major protests by the left-leaning outside of Germany itself. The issue is - why? Is it because we expect better of Israelis than Germans, or because Turks are not as important as Palestinians, or what? > [@](#): > > How many times do you want me to admit the mistake? There was nothing nefarious about my position. I read the wiki article and I read the cite in the cite to the newspaper article in the wiki article and it confirmed the the position. It could have been corrected pages ago but I had to look up the law myself and read it to figure out where the wiki article and the supporting newspaper article went wrong. I’m not claiming your motives were bad - I’m saying that, on the left, there exists an overall willingness to believe, and pass on, characterizations of ME events which are both negative to Israel and factually incorrect. In this very thread, you have done so at least three times: (1) the claim that Israel denies arab-born children citizenship when they are born in Israel; (2) the characterization of Israel’s response to border incident as Israel “put them on reservations and shoot anyone that tries to leave”; and (3) more understandably, the claim that the Palestinians no longer seek the destruction of Israel (this only became _untrue_ this very month, and even then, it’s a bit unsettled). I’m not picking on you, though. I simply think you are typical of many on the left, and I am citing your posts as examples of an overall trend. > [@](#): > > Still the fact remains that Israel restricts naturalization through marriage to Palestinians alone. Like I said still bad but not as egregious as denying citizenship to people born in israel based on their parentage. Not "to Palestinians alone’ but to citizens of certain jurisdictions, which include Palestinians (though naturally this mostly _affects_ Palestinians); and as of the last couple of years, they have eased off in terms of application. The issue here is that the Israelis claim that such naturalizations are often not “genuine”. IMO that is not a good enough rationale for their approach, as the “genuine-ness” can, surely, be determined on a case-by-case basis by some sort of neutral arbiter. That being noted, making naturalization by non-citizens from one part of the world more difficult from that from another is hardly a unique Israeli trait. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/337 "2011-05-19T21:24:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In America you have to renounce any other citizenship before you can become an American citizen. Perhaps its a matter of perspective but renouncing old citizenship before acquiring a new one never seemed disgusting and racist to me, YMMV. I had to do this when I naturalized and I don’t see why this is an unreasonable request. Why should I be able to keep mental reservations about what nation I am a citizen of and where my loyalties lie before I can call myself a citizen of that country? > > I know we make the Turks who emigrate here do exactly that and I have not heard cries of racism over it. > > Short answer is taht as long as they have the same requirement for everyone and don’t single out the Turks for this treatment and there is no discrimination in intent or effect, the fact that Turks might find it offensive is not really Germany’s problem. Huh, what the fuck are you talking about. People certainly don’t have to give up their previous citizenship to become naturalized US citizens. My father didn’t and the US is filled with dual citizens. I also think it’s hilarious that after bashing Germany you’re now saying you have no problem with Germany refusing to grant citizenship to people born in Germany unless renounce Tylurkish citizenship. And yes Damuri, they do single out Turks. Americans of German descent can get German citizenship without losing their American citizenship. I’m amused to see that in addition to not undrstanding the concept of logic you’ve essentially admitted you don’t care about Muslims being discriminated against so long as the people discriminating against them aren’t Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/338 "2011-05-19T21:30:17Z")
Yes, and it’s precisely because of this that I and a lot of other people have a really hard time believing these guys when they say “really, I’m not anti-Semitic! I’m not! I’m just against Israeli _policy!_” when it’s goddamn obvious that they never criticize or even bring up any of the other many countries that are doing the same shit and far, far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/339 "2011-05-19T22:17:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, what the fuck are you talking about. > > People certainly don’t have to give up their previous citizenship to become naturalized US citizens. > > My father didn’t and the US is filled with dual citizens. “Although naturalizing citizens are required to undertake an oath renouncing previous allegiances, the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship.[24]” This must be what I am thinking about. So I must still be a citizen of my country of origin. Still telling people that they have to renounce their citizenship to become citizens doesn’t bother me. if the alw said “all Turks have to renounce their citizenship to become Gemran citizens” then i would have a problem. > [@](#): > > I also think it’s hilarious that after bashing Germany you’re now saying you have no problem with Germany refusing to grant citizenship to people born in Germany unless renounce Tylurkish citizenship. Well, I guess don’t have a problem with forcing people to renounce citizenship as long as it is evenly applied. > [@](#): > > And yes Damuri, they do single out Turks. Americans of German descent can get German citizenship without losing their American citizenship. Well than i am back to saying fuck Germany. They are being discriminatory. > [@](#): > > I’m amused to see that in addition to not undrstanding the concept of logic you’ve essentially admitted you don’t care about Muslims being discriminated against so long as the people discriminating against them aren’t Jews. I’m not OK with anyone being discriminated against. How you got that from what I said is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/340 "2011-05-19T22:19:26Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yes, and it’s precisely because of this that I and a lot of other people have a really hard time believing these guys when they say “really, I’m not anti-Semitic! I’m not! I’m just against Israeli _policy!_” when it’s goddamn obvious that they never criticize or even bring up any of the other many countries that are doing the same shit and far, far worse. Like I said its a really wierd version of tu quoque where you aren’t holding up my own actions as an example of my hypocrisy, you are holding up OTHER people’s actions as an example of my hypocrisy. If you can’t defend your actions, then you can’t defend your actions regardless of whether others would have even MORE trouble defending their actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=18)