# Left wing antisemitism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985 "2011-05-15T14:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/141 "2011-05-16T12:32:36Z")
Take the discussion of South Africa to the thread about South Africa. The apartheid comparison is nothing new, but the other issues don’t belong in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/142 "2011-05-16T13:17:46Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The West Bank and Gaza is not part of Israel. This remains disingenuous no matter how many times you say it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/143 "2011-05-16T13:23:26Z")
wtf? Okay, well, you’ve yet to put forth your cites that Israel disenfranchises people. You’ve yet to tell me **how** it is an apartheid state. So far, you’ve said that “Israel **stole** land.” From whom I’m not sure, but hey. Facts aren’t required in GD. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/144 "2011-05-16T13:35:24Z")
From my understanding, Jews started coming to (the area known at the time as) Palestine in the late 19th century (in addition to the Jews who had lived there for millenia). These Jews fled, by the tens of thousands, from areas in the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere where they faced persecution, and likely had nowhere else to go. This sped up MAJORLY with the start of the Holocaust and other pogroms in Europe, and by the late '30s there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Palestine. The local non-Jewish Palestinians largely opposed this immigration from the beginning. But the Jews came anyway, sticking together, likely because they didn’t have much other choice. And then, along with various machinations of international diplomacy, declared independence after WWII. And when they declared independence, they were attacked by every single Arab country. The attackers told the Palestinian non-Jews to leave (to allow them to sweep Israel into the sea, or whatever), and many left. Israel won the war, and lots of the Palestinians were displaced. Recognizing this, and recognizing that there were atrocities and massacres both small and large on both sides, it doesn’t seem reasonable to say that “Israel stole land”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/145 "2011-05-16T13:41:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I > [looks at others] > Should I mention that I gave him enough rope? I’m afraid he has still not bother to check who the expert interviewed by PBS was. > [/lao] > > Sorry, but just as you have demonstrated to fail at citations, you also fail at checking the ones your opponents bring, that **was** an expert on Saddam. Huh, I haven’t insulted Aburish, you have by misrepresenting what he said. He makes it extremely clear that Saddam was a leftist as he goes on about just how much Saddam modeled himself and his country after Stalin. > [@](#): > > **Saddam Hussein borrowed from Stalinism.** \*\* He had his security people trained in Eastern Europe, particularly East Germany.\*\* Then he brought them back to Iraq and he taught them how to use the tribal linkage to eliminate people. So whereas they used Stalinist methods to discover people who were opposed to the regime, after that came the tribal factor, when Saddam said “Don’t get rid of Abdullah, get rid of his whole family, because one member of his family might assassinate us.” And that made it a perfect system for Iraq. It is practically foolproof. > > Do we know whether or not Saddam has actually studied Stalin’s tactics? > > **There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Saddam studied Stalin.** Stalin is his hero. Stalin came from a humble background. Stalin was brought up by his mother. Stalin used thugs. Stalin used the security service. Stalin hated his army. And so does Saddam Hussein.\*\* Saddam Hussein models himself after Stalin more than any other man in history.\*\* > > H **e has a full library of books about Stalin. He reads about him, and when he was a young man – even before he attained any measure of power – he used to wander around the offices of the Ba’ath Party telling people "Wait until I take over this country. I will make a Stalinist state out of it yet.**" People used to laugh him off. They shouldn’t have. It was a very serious proposition indeed. Sorry dude, but Stalin was a leftist and people who wish to “build a Stalinist state” are leftists. So even your own source proves you wrong, though I’ll give you points for deliberately excluding the parts of the interview where he classifies Stalin as a leftist. Now if you want to turn around and insist that you know more about Saddam than the guy you just quoted and portrayed as an expert go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/146 "2011-05-16T14:06:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sorry dude, but Stalin was a leftist and people who wish to “build a Stalinist state” are leftists. As much as I don’t feel like stepping into the middle of this argument, it’s reasonable to call someone a leftist if they are modeling themselves after Stalin in some economic sense. The text you just quoted only refers to Stalin in terms of running a brutal police state, and it’s ridiculous to say that makes Saddam a leftist. I agree with **Argent Towers** ’ view on the subject (although I might leave Castro out of that category). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/147 "2011-05-16T14:21:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As much as I don’t feel like stepping into the middle of this argument, it’s reasonable to call someone a leftist if they are modeling themselves after Stalin in some economic sense. The text you just quoted only refers to Stalin in terms of running a brutal police state, and it’s ridiculous to say that makes Saddam a leftist. I agree with **Argent Towers** ’ view on the subject (although I might leave Castro out of that category). By that standard we shouldn’t automatically classify supporters of Hitler and Mussolini as right-wingers. Saddam was an avowed socialist, set up Iraq to be a socialist state on the same lines as Ba’athist Syria and was certainly seen as a Socialist by the East Germans and the Soviets who trained him. GIGO wants it both ways, classifying any of the governments who discriminate against Jews that are vaguely right-wing as being proof of right-wing anti-Semitism, but insisting that the persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia and the Arab Socialist states can’t be held against left-wingers. Personally, I don’t think it’s right to claim that anti-Semitism is stronger on the left that than the right, but it’s demonstrably false to claim that it’s worse on the right than the Left. Anyway, he has yet to produce any evidence that Saddam wasn’t a left-winger other than that some on the Left didn’t like him. By this standard, Bush wasn’t a right-winger because various extreme right-wingers believe he wasn’t right-wing enough. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/148 "2011-05-16T14:23:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > As much as I don’t feel like stepping into the middle of this argument, it’s reasonable to call someone a leftist if they are modeling themselves after Stalin in some economic sense. The text you just quoted only refers to Stalin in terms of running a brutal police state, and it’s ridiculous to say that makes Saddam a leftist. I agree with **Argent Towers** ’ view on the subject (although I might leave Castro out of that category). The centralization of natural resources/infrastructure and militant nationalism are two things I can think of. But Iraq has no industrial force. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/149 "2011-05-16T14:28:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > By that standard we shouldn’t automatically classify supporters of Hitler and Mussolini as right-wingers. I don’t. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > The centralization of natural resources/infrastructure and militant nationalism are two things I can think of. Militant nationalism isn’t a leftist trait. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/150 "2011-05-16T14:29:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From my understanding, Jews started coming to (the area known at the time as) Palestine in the late 19th century (in addition to the Jews who had lived there for millenia). These Jews fled, by the tens of thousands, from areas in the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere where they faced persecution, and likely had nowhere else to go. This sped up MAJORLY with the start of the Holocaust and other pogroms in Europe, and by the late '30s there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Palestine. > > The local non-Jewish Palestinians largely opposed this immigration from the beginning. But the Jews came anyway, sticking together, likely because they didn’t have much other choice. And then, along with various machinations of international diplomacy, declared independence after WWII. > > And when they declared independence, they were attacked by every single Arab country. The attackers told the Palestinian non-Jews to leave (to allow them to sweep Israel into the sea, or whatever), and many left. Israel won the war, and lots of the Palestinians were displaced. > > Recognizing this, and recognizing that there were atrocities and massacres both small and large on both sides, it doesn’t seem reasonable to say that “Israel stole land”. How about, “they took land that wasn’t theirs” then? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/151 "2011-05-16T14:29:41Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > The centralization of natural resources/infrastructure and militant nationalism are two things I can think of. > > But Iraq has no industrial force. Well, it’s not surprising that Iraq was viewed as a socialist country when it was ruled by something called The Arab Socialist Party which required it’s members as well as all university students to read Karl Marx and proclaimed itself to be part of “the international socialist struggle”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/152 "2011-05-16T14:31:39Z")
Iraq was a fascist dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/153 "2011-05-16T14:36:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, it’s not surprising that Iraq was viewed as a socialist country when it was ruled by something called The Arab Socialist Party which required it’s members as well as all university students to read Karl Marx and proclaimed itself to be part of “the international socialist struggle”. Later in his reign, Saddam added text from the Quran to the Iraqi flag and either wrote a copy of the Quran himself or had a copy written out using ink that contained his own blood. A few people said this indicated Saddam was an Islamic ruler - mostly conservatives who wanted to wrap Iraq into the war on terror, and some non-conservatives who fell for it. Most people recognized the gambit for what it was: Saddam dressing himself in the trappings of Islamic ideology while doing pretty much the same thing he’d always done, which was whatever he felt like. I suspect the same is true of the Ba’ath Party under Saddam (if not necessarily before he took charge). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/154 "2011-05-16T14:38:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about, “they took land that wasn’t theirs” then? You mean the land they legally purchased from absentee landlords? You do realize that prior to the Palestinian Jews, most of the land was owned not by Palestinian Arabs, but by people living in Damascus or Beirut? Furthermore, it was controlled first by the Ottomans, then by the British and finally by the UN, who were given it by the British. The UN had to decide what to do with the land and the people living there. They decided to divide it into two states, one predominantly Jewish, while the other was an Arab one, because the Arab leadership made it clear they would exterminate the Jews if they had the chance and were led by an avowed Nazi. You have an extremely simplest understanding of the history of the region. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/155 "2011-05-16T14:41:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about, “they took land that wasn’t theirs” then? Who? Obviously not the Jews who have lived there since biblical times. The Jews who started coming in the 1800s? The Jews who escaped from the Holocaust, searching for ANY place they might be able to live? What about the land that was vacated when many left due to the urging of the attacking Arab countries? While I’m sure it’s technically true that at least some Jews took land that wasn’t theirs by force, there seems to be far, far more to the story. Much of that force was defensive in nature- a response to being attacked. Was anything I said regarding Isreal’s history not true? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/156 "2011-05-16T14:43:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Later in his reign, Saddam added text from the Quran to the Iraqi flag and either wrote a copy of the Quran himself or had a copy written out using ink that contained his own blood. A few people said this indicated Saddam was an Islamic ruler - mostly conservatives who wanted to wrap Iraq into the war on terror, and some non-conservatives who fell for it. Most people recognized the gambit for what it was: Saddam dressing himself in the trappings of Islamic ideology while doing pretty much the same thing he’d always done, which was whatever he felt like. I suspect the same is true of the Ba’ath Party under Saddam (if not necessarily before he took charge). Ok, please explain why Assad, Aflaq, and Saddam weren’t really socialists and why the Ba’ath Party wasn’t a socialist organization? I’ll agree the left-right paradigm is a bit simplistic regarding the Middle East since for a long time just about all the governments(including Israel under the Labor Party) were somewhat left-wing by American standards. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/157 "2011-05-16T14:51:32Z")
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:140, topic:581985”] > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, _what_? Did you not just agree that the politics in Israel has nothing to do with race? 😕 Yes. But it has quite a bit to do with ethnicity. > [@](#): > > What’s your new version of apartheid? Can you cite it? You writing a dictionary now? Look it up, exactly like I had it. see for yourself > [@](#): > > No, I do not think that Zionism is racism. Of course not. There are, for instance, Black, Indian and Chinese Jews. But it is ethnicist. > [@](#): > > Sorry. I have not been largely influenced by the British way of spelling. It’s not optional. “Coloured” is the proper name of an ethnicity. Deliberately mis-spelling it is like typing “Joos” for “Jews” > [@](#): > > He can try to redefine a term all he wants. He’s not redefining it. He’s using it in the same sense the ICC and the UN do. I don’t agree that Israel fits the definition, but it’s not because the oppressed class/es is/are an ethnicity/ies. It’s because the level of discrimination doesn’t amount to an attempt at complete segregation, IMO. > [@](#): > > The entire region. Or Europe. Or the U.S. Or almost anywhere in the world except for Sweden. 😛 I can think very few places in which ‘equity’ exists for all. See, that’s the goalpost-moving we’re talking about. The context was Israel. Not The Middle East or Asia, but the one country of Israel. Pointing to equity differences across national boundaries is a complete _non sequitur_. I’ll skip over the South African stuff as per mod request, but: > [@](#): > > I haven’t made any. _You_ seem to think of apartheid as any country that does not …what? Make sure everybody has the same thing? _Opportunity of access_ to the same things. > [@](#): > > I was pointing out that the people in this thread couldn’t even seem to get a handle on what the term meant. :rolleyes: Publishing a study that asked Democrats and Republicans how they felt about Jews is _not_ putting forth an analysis of “left-wing” circa French Revolution. The language of politics has moved on quite a bit since the Revolution. Trying to argue different puts you in the same camp as those who argue that “liberal” still means “libertarian” > [@](#): > > There are few _leftists_ in the U.S. as you (probably) define it. _Left_ and _left of center_ and _liberal_ tends to get stuck in the same pot 'around these parts. I’d wager 90% of the US is Right of where I think the Centre is. > [@](#): > > Israel is not an apartheid state. You’ve already said as much. Do you have any points at all to make in this thread or are you just here to pick apart my posts? I’ve made my point - there are _reasons_ people say Israel is an apartheid state, it’s not just a vendetta against Jews, as you alleged. > [@](#): > > yeah. that’s what i thought. Bit quick to pat yourself, there, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/158 "2011-05-16T14:56:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who? European immmigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/159 "2011-05-16T15:07:29Z")
For the record: I don’t want to join this debate. > [@MrDibble](#): > > There are, for instance, Black, Indian and Chinese Jews. But it is ethnicist. Technically, it’s nationalist. Zionism should be seen as the last of the great 19th-Century nationalist movements, part of the same process that led to the unification of Italy and Germany, the independence of Greece and the Balkan nations, and the redefinitian of the Ottoman Empire as a Turkish nation-state. Just like the the above movements, it had its problems and unintended consequences, but is ultimately irreversable. Oh and \*\*Dio \*\*- cut out the anti-immigrant rhetoric, ok? I know you think that immigrants shouldn’t be granted the same rights as the native-born, but it’s really not proper to express such opinions in polite company. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985/160 "2011-05-16T15:29:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Technically, it’s nationalist. That too: [No coincidence, really.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group#Terminology_and_definition) And I agree, the world has \*got \*to deal with the Israel it’s got, despite what some other people would prefer. That’s life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-antisemitism/581985.md?page=9)