# Left-wing bloggers are just as mad as the right-wingers are at the MSM **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522 "2006-07-14T19:32:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/1 "2006-07-14T19:32:12Z")
There was lots of [slamming of the mainstream media](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060731/chaudhry) at the recent Yearly Kos conference in Dallas – just as fierce as anything you’ll hear from right-wingers like Bernie Goldberg or Hugh Hewitt or Accuracy in Media. But the progressive bloggers claim the nature of their criticism is fundamentally different: > [@](#): > > . . . But where the right-wing blogosphere accuses journalists of ideological bias, the progressive netroots view them as corrupt and compromised. > > “Their view is: ‘You’re part of the establishment, you’re part of the problem. You’re scared that if you write the truth, you’re going to get kicked out of the club,’” says Jennifer Palmieri, vice president of communications at the Center for American Progress. This blistering assessment is hardly surprising since the very creation of the progressive blogosphere is directly linked to an institutional failure of the press. Enraged at the media for failing to represent their views in the aftermath of 9/11, and more so in the lead-up to the Iraq War, people like Moulitsas decided, as he put it, “to stop railing at Fox News and our so-called ‘liberal’ pundits, and start publishing those rants on the web.” > > Journalists have therefore been assigned a very specific role in the netroots narrative about the ascendance of the right, which in turn enabled the wrongs of the Bush Administration. They’re marked as “collaborators” who either because of cowardice or greed delivered this country into the hands of right-wing tyranny. > > As progressive bloggers are quick to point out, there is a vital difference between them and their right-wing counterparts when it comes to goals. Kicking off a panel titled “Political Journalism: Problems and Solutions,” Matt Stoller declared, “One of the things that differentiates what we do from the right-wing echo chamber is that they are, in my opinion, trying to destroy journalism as an institution, and we are trying to remedy its failures.” > > Whereas progressives view the press as vital to a healthy democracy, the right assaults journalism, aiming to undermine its legitimacy and watchdog role. Under the Bush Administration the steady drumbeat of accusations of bias reached a new crescendo, accompanied by an all-out effort to essentially decertify the press as irrelevant to politics. As White House Chief of Staff Andy Card told The New Yorker, the media “don’t represent the public any more than other people do. In our democracy, the people who represent the public stood for election.” > > The Administration’s attack on the press as an institution is part of its broader political strategy. “The Bush forces went after the press because they went after every check and balance on executive power,” says New York University journalism professor Jay Rosen. “Bush intuitively understands that every force that is trying to document facts on the ground is in the way of their project.” As the past six years have made clear, the failure of the mainstream press to fight back has had serious consequences for the American people. Issues: 1. Is this a fair assessment of MSM’s present role WRT the Administration, etc.? 2. Is this a fair assessment of the actual goals of right-wing press criticism? 3. If there is a difference in goals, should the progressive media critics use the same tactics as the right-wingers have, or something different? (Both sides of this question are discussed further down in the article. 4. Will getting simultaneous critical assaults from the right or left be good for the press? Spur reporters to do their jobs better? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/2 "2006-07-14T19:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 1. Is this a fair assessment of MSM’s present role WRT the Administration, etc.? [/quote] Yes. Just compare the press coverage the Clinton-Lewinsky versus Bush-Iraq, and see misguided priorities and slanted bias in action. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 2. Is this a fair assessment of the actual goals of right-wing press criticism? [/quote] Yes. Clinton-Lewinsky/Bush-Iraq proves that there’s no such thing as a “liberal media,” but the right-wing press criticism pounds on, because the mainstream media still has an annoying tendency to report Administration-displeasing facts. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 4. Will getting simultaneous critical assaults from the right or left be good for the press? Spur reporters to do their jobs better? [/QUOTE] No. If anything, it’ll pound the press into becoming even more milquetoast than ever, afraid of offending both sides of the aisle (to the point where they’ll [bring in comedians](http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/14/global-warming-comic/trackback/) to provide “balance”). What the mainstream media _should_ do is simply stick to their journalistic guns – “we’re going to report the truth, no matter who it embarasses and whose ox gets gored in the process.” Of course, such a move will end up having a “liberal bias,” but that’s merely a side-effect of reality itself having a [well-known liberal bias.](http://www.electric-escape.net/node/1249) ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/3 "2006-07-14T19:51:30Z")
Ug… Its so much simpler than all that consiracy theory crap. Its simple economics and psychology. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Issues: 1. Is this a fair assessment of MSM’s present role WRT the Administration, etc.? [/quote] I don’t believe so. IMO The failure of the press can be attributed to a drive for ratings and money which has led to them to the laziness of only framing issues within the bounds given to them by the candidates instead of from a big-picture perspective. > [@](#): > > 1. Is this a fair assessment of the actual goals of right-wing press criticism? No. The right-wing press assault is meant to create a feeling of victimization and an ‘us vs them’ mentality. > [@](#): > > 1. If there is a difference in goals, should the progressive media critics use the same tactics as the right-wingers have, or something different? (Both sides of this question are discussed further down in the article. They should push the bounds of the debates to level the playing field. They should push big-picture, big-issue solutions and a method of framing the issues that’s more logical and dump this either/or crap. > [@](#): > > 1. Will getting simultaneous critical assaults from the right or left be good for the press? Spur reporters to do their jobs better? They haven’t responded to the right, so why would they respond to the left+right? IMO they need to be participating with the press and framing the issues and solutions more intelligently rather than just responding to conservatives or endorsing candidates. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/4 "2006-07-14T19:54:06Z")
[QUOTE=spazattak] They haven’t responded to the right . . . [/QUOTE] Ya think?! ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/5 "2006-07-14T20:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ya think?! [/QUOTE] No, I don’t. I think their only sin is laziness. They just report what they’re given from current politicians. Its not the media’s fault that the (elected) left can’t stand on their own two feet. ---
**Author:** ![DonutSprinkle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@DonutSprinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonutSprinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/6 "2006-07-14T21:28:28Z")
Does anyone know, as far as the DailyKossaks are concerned, how is ‘mainstream media’ defined? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/7 "2006-07-14T22:46:23Z")
[QUOTE=DonutSprinkle] Does anyone know, as far as the DailyKossaks are concerned, how is ‘mainstream media’ defined? [/QUOTE] Anyone who doesn’t agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/8 "2006-07-14T22:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Anyone who doesn’t agree with them. [/QUOTE] Which, to be perfectly clear and balanced, is exactly how the right wing blogsphere identifies “liberal bias”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/9 "2006-07-14T23:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Anyone who doesn’t agree with them. [/QUOTE] No. Otherwise they would count sites like Instapundit and Free Republic as part of the mainstream media. Which they don’t. The mainstream media consists of the television news networks, including Fox and CNN, the major daily newspapers, and the major monthly news magazines. It does not include right-wing talk radio, the blogosphere, college newspapers, or the foreign press. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/10 "2006-07-14T23:35:48Z")
[QUOTE=DonutSprinkle] Does anyone know, as far as the DailyKossaks are concerned, how is ‘mainstream media’ defined? [/QUOTE] AFAIK, they define it the same way the right-wing media critics do – i.e., to include CNN but not Fox. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/11 "2006-07-15T00:11:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] AFAIK, they define it the same way the right-wing media critics do – i.e., to include CNN but not Fox. [/QUOTE] That would be my take on it, too. While sometimes, depending on context, Fox is lumped in with the MSM, they generally differentiate it due to its being a ‘movement’ organ. [QUOTE=Weirddave] Anyone who doesn’t agree with them. [/QUOTE] Is this based on any actual knowledge? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/12 "2006-07-15T00:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] That would be my take on it, too. While sometimes, depending on context, Fox is lumped in with the MSM, they generally differentiate it due to its being a ‘movement’ organ. [/QUOTE] [beavis & butthead] Heh-heh . . . heh-heh. . . Aw, heck with it, you know where I’m going with this! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/13 "2006-07-15T00:28:22Z")
I think it’s worth mentioning that no lefty bloggers or commentators of note have suggested [that journalists](http://www.thoseshirts.com/rope.html) [ought to](http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1134887547.shtml) [be put](http://www.prospect.org/horsesmouth/2006/06/post_182.html) [to death](http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?p=981). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/14 "2006-07-15T00:35:47Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I think it’s worth mentioning that no lefty bloggers or commentators of note have suggested [that journalists](http://www.thoseshirts.com/rope.html) [ought to](http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1134887547.shtml) [be put](http://www.prospect.org/horsesmouth/2006/06/post_182.html) [to death](http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?p=981). [/QUOTE] Well, that points up the OP. Lefty bloggers regard the press as an invaluable public utility that, at this moment in American history, needs reforming. Righty bloggers question the civic value of journalism as such. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/15 "2006-07-15T00:48:20Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Is this based on any actual knowledge? Just wondering. [/QUOTE] _tsk_ Come now, **RT,** you should know better, by now, than to expect any of **Weirddave’s** posts to be based on any actual knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Stentor\_2.5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@Stentor\_2.5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor_2.5)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/16 "2006-07-15T01:06:46Z")
Well, if these bloggers think the MSM is doing such a bad job, why don’t they take over. It’s not like you need a license to be a journalist. Bloggers can roam around Iraq. Bloggers can slog through mounds of government paperwork looking for evidence of wrongdoing. Bloggers can watch C-Span endelssly. Somehow I don’t think bloggers are able to do these things. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/17 "2006-07-15T01:20:45Z")
[QUOTE=Stentor 2.5] It’s not like you need a license to be a journalist. [/QUOTE] But it **is** like you need a shitload of money to start a newspaper or TV network. Which right-wingers such as Rupert Murdoch are much more likely than left-wingers to have in the first place. For some reason, there are a lot more Rupert Murdochs then George Soroses in the world, more’s the pity. “The press is free for he who owns one.” ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/18 "2006-07-15T01:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] _tsk_ Come now, **RT,** you should know better, by now, than to expect any of **Weirddave’s** posts to be based on any actual knowledge. [/QUOTE] Or facts I suppose. I notice you just walked away from the last thread we were both in when you couldn’t document your claims. At least RTF admitted he had no proof before quiting the thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/19 "2006-07-15T01:46:45Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] I notice you just walked away from the last thread we were both in . . . [/QUOTE] You’ll have to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522/20 "2006-07-15T01:52:31Z")
The question I often wonder is “Does anyone actually care what some random internet person with a Blog thinks?” I certainly don’t, but your results can and probably do vary… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-bloggers-are-just-as-mad-as-the-right-wingers-are-at-the-msm/364522.md?page=2)