# Left-wing dopers, I tell you now, Bush may not have lied. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 29, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422 "2005-06-29T20:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/21 "2005-06-30T12:30:09Z")
The fact that “the other guys” are trying to weasel away from the obvious doesn’t mean you have to weasel as well. If you let yourself get drawn into that game, of saying “Well, this is something upon which reasonable people may disagree” even when that’s not true, you just get stuck there. And, unfortunately, that’s the same point at which you’d be if we all agreed “Well, yes, Bush lied to us to start a war”, _and then we did nothing about it_. What difference would \*that \* make to the world? At some point, one which we’ve already reached and should have passed by now, a reasonable _and responsible_ person acknowledges the obvious _and acts on it_. We’ve never really gotten to the point of discussing if that means impeachment or indictment or not because too many of us have shown too little spine lest we be labelled “shrill harpies of the left” or somesuch. That is irresponsible of us as citizens, and advocating even more of it, as the OP suggests, is even more irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/22 "2005-06-30T12:45:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That is irresponsible of us as citizens, and advocating even more of it, as the OP suggests, is even more irresponsible. I am not advocate spiinlessness. However, I have gotten really tired of how semantics get twisted around, as in the fact that it is impossible to prove who knew what when. Thus, I simply suggest a change of word choice. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/23 "2005-06-30T13:05:40Z")
Of course he lied. And here’s how he paid for it. [http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/amusement/bushv2.htm](http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/amusement/bushv2.htm) 😃😃😃😃😃 ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/24 "2005-06-30T13:12:20Z")
> [@E = mc²](#): > > Of course he lied. And here’s how he paid for it. > > [http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/amusement/bushv2.htm](http://www.andyfoulds.co.uk/amusement/bushv2.htm) > > 😃😃😃😃😃 ¡Y Blair también! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/25 "2005-06-30T13:35:14Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > However, I am not annoyed enough to pit him, just to show that if people used the phrase “It is likely that Bush lied about (blank)”, rather then the claim “Bush lied. Full stop.”, we (liberals) might have a few less objection from the other side. Not that much less, but still… **Translation:** Then there’s the risk that with a questionably justifiable beef that lacks certain requisite elements of logic and isn’t presented in a form of communication that could be considered standard that I’ll definately run the risk of getting my ass handed back to me on a gilt edged platter. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/26 "2005-06-30T13:54:51Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, refering to the atomic bomb would be kinda right wing, not a lef-wing code. 🙂 I know you’re just trying to be funny, but . . . this fails miserably and is offensive. After all, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a Democrat and his social policies place him squarely left of center. Further, many of the top scientists gathered up for the Manhattan Project espoused leftist beliefs to a greater or lesser degree. But you knew that, right? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/27 "2005-06-30T13:56:22Z")
And I **still** don’t know what this: > [@](#): > > Oh, yeah right, like the other side will ever stop seeing our these stereotypes, rather then what we actually say. Yeah, right. Ha! means. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/28 "2005-06-30T13:59:00Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > my ass handed back to me on a gilt edged platter. ::Sigh.:: My ass? I am not making the claim that bush lied. I am irritated, however, when the following happens. [ol] [li]Shodan, (for example) makes a ridiculous claim.[/li][li]People show how he is arguing against a strawman[/li][li]Shodan doesn’t have a comeback to that, but instead, changes the topic. “How do you know that Bush is wrong?”, he asks[/li][li]People respond with proof that bush probley knew what he was doing[/li][li]Shodan points out that we can not prove things beyond the shadow of a doubt.[/li][li] Well duh, if we could, he would be impeached by now.[/li][li]Continue for days. Repeat step one.[/li][/ol] The following statement is quite useful in judging my state of mind, by the way. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I am on record on saying this before: what Bush and buddies are doing is called Equivocation. > > Bush is continuing to mislead the people who still think Saddam was involved in 9/11, while at the same time throwing a good denial bone to the more understanding followers. > > The result: reasonable conservatives patting themselves in the back thinking that liberals are silly for complaining, but that is indeed simple minded: for the desired effect is not to mislead more sophisticated conservatives, but to keep the misled people still off course. > > For more reasonable folks, equivocation remains. And as my teacher of marketing in a conservative institution told me about the equivocation fallacy: _it is the same as lying._ P.S. **E = mc²** : Remember something similar in the beginning of Super Mario 64? **UncleBeer** : Yes, I know, I was just trying to find some semi-funny way of showing I understood your reference. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/29 "2005-06-30T14:29:31Z")
> [@](#): > > UncleBeer: Yes, I know, I was just trying to find some semi-funny way of showing I understood your reference. Wasn’t mine; belongs to pink freud. Scott, I really would like to know what it is you’re trying to say here. I honestly cannot discern your meaning. > [@](#): > > Oh, yeah right, like the other side will ever stop seeing our these stereotypes, rather then what we actually say. Pretty please? I’ll buy you an ice cream cone. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/30 "2005-06-30T15:32:29Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Scott, I really would like to know what it is you’re trying to say here. I honestly cannot discern your meaning. > > > [@](#): > > > > Oh, yeah right, like the other side will ever stop seeing our these stereotypes, rather then what we actually say. > > Pretty please? I’ll buy you an ice cream cone. I see, you typed it in a second after I previewed, and I didn’t see it. Well, I am not trying to duck the issue. For an example of seeing stereotypes, rather then what is said, see the recent threads about Senator Durbin. [ul] [li]Republican: Durbin insulted the troops![/li][li]Democrat:No he didn’t! He said we would have problems teeling these actions aprat from that of a hypothetical past regime. This is true for the following reasons: (Insert good points A, B, and C, here)[/li][li]Republican: How dare you defend his slandering our troops! [/ul] [/li]Rinse and repeat. It seems, judging from the past, that this does not only happen with deliberate strawmen, but it seems as if republicans mentally insert the expected reply into what they see from democrats, rather then what is actually said. I have grow to suspect this is not always intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/31 "2005-06-30T15:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, yeah right, like the other side will ever stop seeing our these stereotypes, rather then what we actually say. I think what our friend means is “no matter how carefully we phrase our posts, the right wingers will mischaracterize and distort them”. Or else “chartreuse zombies have invaded my sigmoid colon, please call out the National Guard to rescue Princess Inflatable”. I am not entirely sure. Is it against the rules to request that another Doper put me on their ignore list? 😉 **Scott** old bean, if you are going to Pit me, then Pit me. But if you aren’t, then when you claim to be linking to one of my posts, kindly link to the post itself, not someone else’s version of it. But consider the suggestion about the ignore list. Don’t let me know about it, that would be a violation of the rules, but I would glad if I occupied a smaller place in your thoughts. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/32 "2005-06-30T15:49:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think what our friend means is “no matter how carefully we phrase our posts, the right wingers will mischaracterize and distort them”. Quite true. > [@](#): > > But if you aren’t, then when you claim to be linking to one of my posts, kindly link to the post itself, not someone else’s version of it. Why? After all, your thread was full of distortions. I sent the link to where your claims were broken down helps show that fact. Also, I am annoyed over a behavior, who which you, among other people, demonstrate. You were just a example. I am not currently pitting the behavior, because, currently, I am not angry enough to swear. P.S. You know, this could not be a better example. Shodan claims "when **you claim to be linking to one of my posts** , kindly link to the post itself, not someone else’s version of it. " However, this is no way reflects my actual words. What I really said was: “**(link to a) response to Shodan’s latest post, broken down into chunks here**” It seems as if Shodan can not see the difference. What causes this behavior? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/33 "2005-06-30T16:16:20Z")
[quote=Scott Plaid] I see, you typed it in a second after I previewed, and I didn’t see it. Well, I am not trying to duck the issue.] I see now. Where your typed the words “our” & “these” back-to-back like that I thought was misspelling of some modifer. But one of them isn’t supposed to be there at all. Thank you. > [@](#): > > For an example of seeing stereotypes, rather then what is said, see the recent threads about Senator Durbin. And how about _my_ comments in that thread? I self-identify as a Republican and I was among those who said Durbin’s comments weren’t what was claimed in the OP. (And really, the capital letter at the front of that word is necessary; small “r” and capital “R” impart two wholly different meanings to that word. If you sincere wish to avoid future misunderstandings and head off potential strawmen, you should learn to use the form that properly conveys your meaning.) Furthermore, I find it quite odd that while you are bemoaning what you see as a _deliberate_ misunderstanding of the words of some Left-wing dopers, you slander a whole group of your opponents. You’ve lumped the entire right side of the spectrum together and ascribed the acts of a few to all. How is this terribly different from what the strawmen you are complaining about? > [@](#): > > Rinse and repeat. It seems, judging from the past, that this does not only happen with deliberate strawmen, but it seems as if republicans mentally insert the expected reply into what they see from democrats, rather then what is actually said. I have grow to suspect this is not always intentional. Yup. And no one on the Left ever does this. Horsemuffins. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/34 "2005-06-30T16:23:30Z")
And yeah, as Shodan has observed, this thread is really more suited to the Pit than to MPSIMS. Matters not a whit whether you’re currently inclined to profanity. This thing has taken on a decidely personal overtone. I know, not really your intention, but it is a predictable result. My suggestion wou be to ask the mods to either move it there, or just close it altogether and then maybe try again - without the broad sweeping generalizations and without binding the topic so strongly to a single example of the behavior you decry. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/35 "2005-06-30T16:33:28Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > **Scott** , my Plaid Lad, you need to get out more. Turn your computer off, put some shoes on and go for a walk. Maybe even stop at a pub and buy a beer. Feel the breeze on your face and speak to someone you meet while you are out. > > It’ll do you a world of good. Really. Bears repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/36 "2005-06-30T16:33:53Z")
That is to say, when someone does something idiotic and harmful, it is normal to assume that the person did it because they knew Because, it is used heavily by the current regime, and while some republicans attack others for using it, you guys seem to be in the minority. Even if you do point out the falseness of a fellow republicans claim, it is highly likely they will do it again. Even if If they do stop, it often happens that someone will come in latter and argue the same line as before. In democrat’s argument, on the other hand, generally, when someone has been told by fellow democrats that they are mischaracterizing the argument, generally, they stop doing it. P.S. I decry this behavior. I also see it existing, and not just in one example. Perhaps, if you want more examples of the same behavior, I could put down examples as I come across them. However, if the mods want to move this, that is their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/37 "2005-06-30T16:35:43Z")
> [@Happy Lendervedder](#): > > Bears repeating. Good thing I already do this. Of course, when I do, I often see newspapers left out in the coffee shop showing examples of exactly this kind of behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/38 "2005-06-30T16:38:17Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, I don’t mind if you ask. However, I don’t see what is unclear about my statement. Anyone want to rephrase this for him? Bush bad. Democrats good! Grass green. Sky BLUE! 😃😉 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/39 "2005-06-30T16:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Good thing I already do this [get out]. Great. Then you’re aware that the SDMB is but a small portion of the world. And assuming the behavior you have observed in a few members of a subset of the population here isn’t necessarily representative of society in general. > [@](#): > > In democrat’s argument, on the other hand, generally, when someone has been told by fellow democrats that they are mischaracterizing the argument, generally, they stop doing it. When you do turn off the computer and head out, you should remove the blinders and stop **looking for things** that butress your prejudice. Quit trying to fit the world into your preconceived notions. You are becoming more and more offensive and saying things of greater and greater stupidity as this thread progresses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422/40 "2005-06-30T17:47:43Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Why? After all, your thread was full of distortions. Because [list=A][li]It’s stupid[_]It’s dishonest and stupid[_]You are in the wrong forum for me to respond when you are being dishonest and stupid.[/list] [/li] Look, if you are going to act like a _(expletive deleted)_, then start your threads in a forum where I can call you a _(expletive deleted)_. Your OP is certainly mundane, but it is not pointless. It is designed to Pit me in a forum where you hope to avoid both the refutation and the flaming you so richly deserve. Thus, you are in the wrong forum. You wanna get jiggy with me? Then grow a pair, and do it where such things can be dealt with in the manner they deserve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/left-wing-dopers-i-tell-you-now-bush-may-not-have-lied/310422.md?page=3)