# Lefties who are angry at Obama are misguided **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820 "2010-12-11T22:40:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/101 "2010-12-13T03:37:18Z")
Even better would be for Obama to steal a page from the Republican playbook and announce the Freedom of Marriage Act which would allow anyone to marry anyone or anything, and the Sanctity of the Bodies of American Women Act which would make abortion for any woman legal at any time, without the permission of anyone, even her parents/husband. this too would have the conservatives running around with their heads on fire, and in the meantime the Dems could past any damn fiscal legislation they want, including legislation to make conservatives pay a huge “incorrectness tax.” ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/102 "2010-12-13T03:52:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well of course the conservative mouthpieces will be running around like their heads are on fire over all this stuff, “War on the job creators!” “Corporations to leave America!” blahblahblah, at the end of the day, the Republicans are allowed to thrash the Dems on all these proposals, but letting the Bush tax cuts sunset is small potatoes, and so they expire. Or they’ll just filibuster the whole thing. Again, this just seems to be a variation on the Jedi Mindtrick thing, that if Obama really really wanted to, he could bend the GOP to his will via pure steely resolve or trickery. At the end of the day, you need to pass legislation in the current US congress by convincing Scott Brown and one of the Senators from Maine that they should vote for it. They’re not going to be tricked into it by a bunch of handwaving or cowed into voting when Obama afixes them with a flinty stare. After all, if your plan is so blindingly obvious that you think everyone who hasn’t mentioned it is disingenuous, won’t the GOP and press see it for what it is too? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > THAT’S what Obama should have been doing all along! It’s SO FREAKING OBVIOUS! It makes me wonder if he really cared about the tax cuts at all. I think he cares, but he obviously cares about extending unemployment and the stimulus-created tax breaks more. Hence the compromise. Obama (correctly, IMHO) thought two years more of lower taxes for the wealthy were less important then stimulating the economy. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/103 "2010-12-13T04:06:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Anybody who says that’s all they want is caricaturizing. That’s _one_ of their priorities, but so is preserving low taxation on unearned income. What they were bluffing on was their appearance of being willing to alienate the Great Unwashed populace from whom they draw the bulk of the votes they need to stay in office, by directly and publicly voting against their own tax breaks and unemployment lifelines. > > So, give them credit for having more than one thought in their heads at once, and the apparent inconsistency will clear up for you, okay? I don’t think they were bluffing about that. Their calculation was that if taxes went up for everyone, most people wouldnt be happy, and Democrats would get blamed. It’s not apparent to me that they would have been wrong about that. And, as has been pointed out by others, you haven’t given any evidence that Republicans were bluffing. Their preferences, as revealed by their choices over and over again over the past two years, seem to be to vote against Democratic priorities, even if those priorities were cavorts by a majority of the populace. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/104 "2010-12-13T04:22:07Z")
Obama’s calculations ignore the deficits. It is obvious the Repubs still believe the Regan mantra " deficits don’t matter". I though Obama knew better. Letting the tax cuts die would have cut the deficits over 25 percent. That is huge and worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/105 "2010-12-13T04:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > …even if those priorities were cavorts by a majority of the populace. Well, yes, but those priorities were frolics by another 25%, and parties by another 12%. A fête worse than death, I’m sure you’ll agree. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/106 "2010-12-13T04:30:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, yes, but those priorities were frolics by another 25%, and parties by another 12%. A fête worse than death, I’m sure you’ll agree. :::Shoots elucidator::: Sorry, had to be done! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/107 "2010-12-13T04:33:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Obama’s calculations ignore the deficits. It is obvious the Repubs still believe the Regan mantra " deficits don’t matter". I though Obama knew better. > Letting the tax cuts die would have cut the deficits over 25 percent. That is huge and worth doing. Obama pretty clearly thinks restoring employment is more important the immediate deficit reduction. If he didn’t, the Stimulus wouldn’t have made any sense. And this tax deal, at least in theory, will help restore employment. But if Obama really didn’t care about the deficit at all, there wouldn’t really be any reason for him not to just make the tax-cuts permanent (or at least give them another decade), or to make sure the ACA was deficit neutral. As Bush showed, really not caring about deficits makes legislating a lot easier. I’m sure Obama wishes he could ignore them, but when it comes to passing permenant changes is spending anyways, he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/108 "2010-12-13T04:49:34Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > :::Shoots elucidator::: > > Sorry, had to be done! 😉 But…but… **Elvish** …said…you were…_bluffing!_ ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/109 "2010-12-13T15:00:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You guys keep asking how Obama should negotiate differently. …for the sake of argument, I will spell it out for you. Say Obama is negotiating over taxes… …what he does is announce that he wants to implement a whole new regimen of taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations. JUST the wealthy you understand… say 25% over what it is now… 35% over what it is now… loopholes… all be closed… severe criminal penalties imposed… alarming stuff. > > Well of course the conservative mouthpieces will be running around like their heads are on fire… but letting the Bush tax cuts sunset is small potatoes, and so they expire. > > THAT’S what Obama should have been doing all along! It’s SO FREAKING OBVIOUS! _Scenes from January 2011 in Evil Captorverse:_ **Press Conference, Capitol Hill** Senate Majority Leader McConnell: As he’s shown time and time again, this President is trying to create a socialist regime in our country, and the Republican party must -and _WILL_ stand fast against it! In his first year, Mr. Obama tried to put big government between a patient and their doctor with his ‘single payer’ socialist nonsense; thankfully, we were able to stall this in both houses and retain our present, world’s best healthcare system, but it was a close call! This President has threatened the sanctity of marriage with his -_erm!_- proposed Gay Marriage Act, and tried to pollute the world’s finest military with his Gay Soldiers Act. Speaker Boehner: And don’t forget the Letting Terrists Loose on American Streets Act! Senate Majority Leader McConnell: Right! And the Obama Robber Hood Tax Proposal in the lame duck session! Thankfully, the American people gave us supermajorities in Congress in November, and we’ll be able to stop this socialist tide. **Progressive Internet Message Board** **Leftwing Louie** : All Obama has done is give lip service to what we want, and then immediately folds! **ModerateNoMoe** : I mean, when he outlines a good position and then gives it all away the next freakin’ day… Does he even _care_ about this stuff? **Leftwing Louie** : And does he think his base is stupid enough to fall for the sops he throws us before he sells out every time? **DF Hippistan** : Primary his ass! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/110 "2010-12-13T15:29:08Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Obama pretty clearly thinks restoring employment is more important the immediate deficit reduction. If he didn’t, the Stimulus wouldn’t have made any sense. And this tax deal, at least in theory, will help restore employment. > > But if Obama really didn’t care about the deficit at all, there wouldn’t really be any reason for him not to just make the tax-cuts permanent (or at least give them another decade), or to make sure the ACA was deficit neutral. > > As Bush showed, really not caring about deficits makes legislating a lot easier. I’m sure Obama wishes he could ignore them, but when it comes to passing permenant changes is spending anyways, he doesn’t. Restoring employment is impossible. If it were easy, it would have been done by now. There are conflicts with giving tax breaks to corporations because they are not creating jobs. It is small businesses that are our hopes for jobs. They need funding. The banks are not lending to small businesses. It still comes back to the banks. They caused the mess and are profiting mightily. They are laughing all the way to their Cayman Island banks, where they put their money. If Obama wants to win the people back, put a bunch of big time bankers on trial for fraud. But then you are up against the real power in America. They fight dirty. and the Repubs work for them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/111 "2010-12-13T16:47:29Z")
The “ask for a million dollars so they’ll give you a thousand” might work if the person _has_ to deal with you, and if you don’t care how you’re perceived by third parties. Neither holds in politics. This is a useful article: [How Not to Negotiate a Tax Deal in Two Easy Steps - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/12/how-not-to-negotiate-a-tax-deal-in-two-easy-steps/67813/) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/112 "2010-12-13T16:57:41Z")
“Cartoon calisthenics.” Nice turn of phrase there. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/113 "2010-12-13T18:14:34Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The “ask for a million dollars so they’ll give you a thousand” might work if the person _has_ to deal with you, and if you don’t care how you’re perceived by third parties. Neither holds in politics. > > This is a useful article: [How Not to Negotiate a Tax Deal in Two Easy Steps - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/12/how-not-to-negotiate-a-tax-deal-in-two-easy-steps/67813/) That’s not an article; it’s an opinion piece, just like this post. Here’s the part that I found most amusing (you knew I’d find something amusing, given that McMegan is the author): **1) Ask for the Moon, You’ll Get the Stars** You saw this a lot during health care, and it seems to be surfacing somewhat here. The idea is that you take a really extreme position, so that you can allow yourself to be negotiated down to what you really want. So you get people claiming that the administration should have started at single-payer, because then they could have negotiated down to the public option, which would be totally awesome. While it is true that negotiators often ask for things that they don’t want, this cartoon version is really, really stupid. You can see how stupid it is by asking yourself what would have happened if Republicans had used this tactic? I sure can, can’t I? The GOP did exactly this with the 2003 capital gains tax cut. They asked for a $700 billion cut, and got a $350 billion cut. Worked pretty damned well, didn’t it? So. McMegan, where’s the part where I’ll see how stupid using this approach is if the GOP were to use it? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/114 "2010-12-13T18:23:58Z")
**Rufus** , McGargle may frequently give absurd commentary, but in this case, she shows a better understanding of negotiation than many of the darling pundits of the left. Had Obama followed the wise counsel of Markos, Cenk and others, appointed a left leaning economic team, started with single-payer, proposed nationalizing the banks, proposed the “alarming” tax increases for millionairs mentioned before… He’d have looked exactly like the Secret Socialist Menace the Republicans and their news arm at Fox have been trying to paint him since before his Inauguration. And his “base” at DKos, etc. would still be disgusted with him since he wouldn’t have accomplished nearly what he has (IMO, obviously). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/115 "2010-12-13T19:00:06Z")
Leaving aside whether the zone of acceptable conclusion can be moved on this kind of timetable, Obama has one thing the Pubbies lack: a constitutional veto. If I were in his shoes, given the way things have gone the last two year, I’d basically say, “I’m vetoing everything from now on, unless it originates in my office & passes unchanged. And unlike some committee chair, I have the constitutional authority to do exactly that. You can’t get to 60 votes on anything, you sure as hell aren’t getting any veto overrides.” I’d write the budget for them, & have them vote for it, because they won’t get any other budget signed. And I’d govern from the White House, & reduce the Senate to a rubber stamp. If they then refused to pass anything, I declare emergency powers & rule by fiat until the end of my second term. And yes, I believe that I would be re-elected. Strength is attractive. Obama is weak, hence he’s now no longer attractive. McConnell has won, Obama will be a one-termer. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/116 "2010-12-13T19:05:10Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > This is just silly. I disagree. I find it utterly hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/117 "2010-12-13T19:05:23Z")
**xenophon,** if he’d done those things, what would happen? He’d be denounced by the right in exactly the way he is! The right’s rhetoric has been tailored to what an actual left-wing Democrat would do! Obama needs to understand that he could give McConnell total control over legislation & the overwrought rhetoric would still be there, he could run this country as a dictator like Saddam Hussein & the rhetoric would be the same. He has the power, he can do whatever he wants. I think he does understand that. And what we’re seeing is exactly what Obama wants. Like most politically active upper-middle-class Yanks born between 1945 & 1965, Obama has a reflexive hatred of tax, & an inability to govern responsibly due to that. We’re screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/118 "2010-12-13T19:33:45Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If I were in his shoes, given the way things have gone the last two year, I’d basically say, “I’m vetoing everything from now on, unless it originates in my office & passes unchanged. And unlike some committee chair, I have the constitutional authority to do exactly that. You can’t get to 60 votes on anything, you sure as hell aren’t getting any veto overrides.” I’d write the budget for them, & have them vote for it, because they won’t get any other budget signed. And I’d govern from the White House, & reduce the Senate to a rubber stamp. If they then refused to pass anything, I declare emergency powers & rule by fiat until the end of my second term. And yes, I believe that I would be re-elected. Is this supposed to be a parody of lunatic right-wing conspiracy theories about Obama? If Obama or any other president ever tried this he woud face a massive revolt from the senators of his own party and impeachment. Some progressives need to get a grip and learn the realities of US politics. It’s hard to get things done and this is true for Republicans as well as Democrats. The idea of ruthless conservatives bending Democrats to their will and getting one victory after another is a complete myth. Both the Reagan and Bush administrations repeatedly had to compromise on conservative ideology especially after their first year or two. Reagan raised taxes several times after his first big tax cut. The prescription drugs bill that Bush signed was the biggest expansion of the welfare state in decades. Conservatives have completely failed in their goal of reducing the overall size of government in the last 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/119 "2010-12-13T19:48:01Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Conservatives have completely failed in their goal of reducing the overall size of government in the last 30 years. They have succeeded in their actual goal of slashing tax rates lower & lower. The base doesn’t care how much money the feds spend so long as their taxes are always going down. They are. And it’s not like I’d have to throw out the constitution to run things from the White House. I wouldn’t be doing anything nuttier than what Congressmen do, & I’d have more authority to do so. “Until there’s an acceptable budget, I will make such emergency decisions as need to be made.” ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820/120 "2010-12-13T20:01:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, yes, but those priorities were frolics by another 25%, and parties by another 12%. A fête worse than death, I’m sure you’ll agree. Stupid iPad autocorrect 😉 > [@foolsguinea](#): > > If I were in his shoes, given the way things have gone the last two year, I’d basically say, “I’m vetoing everything from now on, unless it originates in my office & passes unchanged. And unlike some committee chair, I have the constitutional authority to do exactly that. You can’t get to 60 votes on anything, you sure as hell aren’t getting any veto overrides.” I’d write the budget for them, & have them vote for it, because they won’t get any other budget signed. And I’d govern from the White House, & reduce the Senate to a rubber stamp. If they then refused to pass anything, I declare emergency powers & rule by fiat until the end of my second term. And yes, I believe that I would be re-elected. That presumes that the consequences of doing nothing (which is the most likely outcome of this strategy) would be beneficial to Obama. Unfortunately, I’m fairly certain that the “doing nothing” option would mostly make the economy worse, which would redound largely to the benefit of Republicans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefties-who-are-angry-at-obama-are-misguided/563820.md?page=7)