# Leftists, Rightists, Centrists--Why Can't We All Just Get Along? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673 "2006-04-21T19:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/61 "2006-04-23T22:55:05Z")
Well, for once, I agree with **Der Trihs** - but I think that this thread is not the place to debate this issue, and we are straying dangerously far from the OP. Why don’t you or **Sam Stone** start a new thread to talk about whether it’s better to have large or small government, since the issue doesn’t seem to be related to the increasing partisanship in US politics? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/62 "2006-04-24T03:36:10Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > Well, for once, I agree with **Der Trihs** - but I think that this thread is not the place to debate this issue, and we are straying dangerously far from the OP. Why don’t you or **Sam Stone** start a new thread to talk about whether it’s better to have large or small government, since the issue doesn’t seem to be related to the increasing partisanship in US politics? Not necessarily. They’re demonstrating why there is partisanship in the first place. I wonder how many people actually change their minds on political matters and whether it can actually be done. People get awful stubborn about what they think about. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/63 "2006-04-24T11:16:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Not necessarily. They’re demonstrating why there is partisanship in the first place. I wonder how many people actually change their minds on political matters and whether it can actually be done. People get awful stubborn about what they think about. Yeah, I guess I agree. While some people’s politics certainly do evolve over time, I’d be interested in seeing some sort of study as to what percentage of people adopt their family’s/town’s/culture’s ideology. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/64 "2006-04-24T11:54:23Z")
I think people of strong beliefs are not afraid if other people agree or disagree with them. If the government allowed one religion to put up their religious symbols on Government property there would be a big out cry if the devil worshippers put up their symbol of satan next to a nativity scene, or a Buddah,or Baal. Hence our forefathers wisdom in seperation of religion and state. I find it strange that I have never seen the 10 commandments posted in front of a church of any denomination,but they want it up in the public buildings; no one has ever complained about one being put up in front of a church, (or the nativity scenes that some churches put up in front of their buildings). Some people will tolerate anothers beliefs,but there are a few who do not, I think they are afraid that if everyone doesn’t follow their beliefs that maybe they are wrong! Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/65 "2006-04-24T14:13:09Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Of course, just like the good old days, or what happens in countries with weak or corrupt regulations. For example, a while back thousands died in Turkey after an earthquake; it turned out that building codes weren’t being enforced, and many collapsed. There’s a difference between civil society and corrupt society. In a corrupt society, government regulation doesn’t matter, because you just buy the regulators. In a civil society, there are many forces keeping things on the straight and narrow. Insurance rules, building associations, tort law, etc. > [@](#): > > I’d be breathing poisoned air, drinking poisoned water, eating poisoned food, and I wouldn’t dare take medicine of any kind. Plus, I’d be watching the country be clearcut and stripmined into a moonscape. Right. Because before 1962, Americans were dropping like flies from deadly medicines. And God knows, with the FDA looking after it all now, no useless or dangerous medicines ever get to market. > [@](#): > > The drugs would be useless or poisoned; you’d see the return of things like “diet pills” filled with tapeworm eggs. You don’t see medical innovation because there’s no point; why make a new drug when you can repackage an old ? Right… Everyone knows there is no profit in coming up with new drugs. Ask Pfizer. And how many people die waiting for drugs to come onto the market that are being held up for FDA approval? > [@](#): > > No, the majority would be lucky to be literate at all, much less get an education. You really believe that, don’t you? You think the average person would let their child grow up illiterate? In every society wealthy enough to be able to afford widespread education, there is widespread education. Whether or not it’s run by the government. > [@](#): > > And I have no regard for them whatsoever; that’s why I mentioned the Iraqi dead. > > Because the auto industry contributes money to American politicians, and the Iraqis don’t. > > The death rate in Baghdad alone is 8 times what it was prewar; we are directly and indirectly killing far more than Saddam, and much more indiscriminately. You know, that statistic is completely wrong. It counts only the number of people who wound up in morgues before and after the war. But the victims of secret police rarely wind up in a morgue. They wind up in mass graves or fed into woodchippers. So far, between 250,000 and 400,000 bodies have been found in mass graves in Iraq. This does not include Kurds killed by gas, or the Shiites that were killed in reprisals from their uprising in 1991, or other publically-known killings. These are people who just ‘disappeared’. Family members dragged away in the night, or vanished on their way home from work. Shot in the back of the head for ‘disloyalty’ and disposed of in a shallow grave somewhere. That’s roughly 10-20,000 PER YEAR. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/66 "2006-04-24T14:28:26Z")
> [@](#): > > And let me repeat that number again: 40,000 people a YEAR. That’s almost as many Americans as were killed over the entire course of the Vietnam war. Car accidents are the #1 cause of death for people under 40. Most of us know someone who was killed or severely injured in a car crash. Similarly, around the same number of WW2 veterans died due to smoking as died in WW2 combat (or even more.) If the government had been more thorough in testing suspected “death sticks” (as they were already known as at the time,) and less time buying cigarette makers’ smokescreens (NPI,) and obfuscations, perhaps fewer would have died as a result. ---
**Author:** ![want2know](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@want2know](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2know)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/67 "2006-04-24T17:31:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think people of strong beliefs are not afraid if other people agree or disagree with them. > If the government allowed one religion to put up their religious symbols on Government property there would be a big out cry if the devil worshippers put up their symbol of satan next to a nativity scene, or a Buddah,or Baal. Hence our forefathers wisdom in seperation of religion and state. > > I find it strange that I have never seen the 10 commandments posted in front of a church of any denomination,but they want it up in the public buildings; no one has ever complained about one being put up in front of a church, (or the nativity scenes that some churches put up in front of their buildings). > > Some people will tolerate anothers beliefs,but there are a few who do not, I think they are afraid that if everyone doesn’t follow their beliefs that maybe they are wrong! > > Monavis Sorry, guys, I was out of town for a couple of days, but I’m now ready to take my medicine on some of your excellent points. First, **monavis** , you make a very good point regarding the 10 commandments and their placement. I hadn’t realized that until you posted it. I haven’t seen them posted in front of churches either; then again, most Christian denominations tend to focus on the New Testament rather that the Old. This could possibly be the reason. As far as “people of strong beliefs”, this is one of the points I was trying to get across. I respect everyone’s right to their own beliefs; after all, that is the basis of a free society. The fact that we can get together in a forum such as this to discuss them bears this out. My objection is to those in that society who would use the political process to turn those beliefs into law and to stigmatize those who disagree with those beliefs. It just irritates me that there are those among us who would puff out their chests and tell the world “We are the standard bearers of freedom and liberty” while at the same time attempting to pass legislation based on their own personal moral codes. If you think homosexuality is immoral, fine. If you think abortion is murder, by all means, go on believing that. But I think it’s time to look at the big picture and try to solve the real problems our nation faces–crime, the economy, dishonest politicians, influence-peddling–things that really need to be our priorities! I think most of us can agree on that. Regarding all the posts about religious symbols: I was stating that _I_ was not offended by them. But you’ve all made good arguments regarding the use of public funds to display them, so I’m willing to concede that point. BTW, I don’t want any more of my tax money funding this whole fiasco in Iraq–who do I see about that? 😉 I admit my idealism may be unrealistic–so was the Revolutionary War. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/68 "2006-04-24T18:00:01Z")
I think in the end we can’t get along because of method not means (I’ll explain). Most of us agree that Murder is wrong. A nice simple belief we can all share. But what is murder? Is capital punishment murder? Is abortion? Is killing an agressor? Is war? What should we do to stop it? Protest? Arrest? Incarcerate? Study? Rehabilatate? Shoot upon arrest? What should we do to discourage it? What should we do to make sure we have agreement on terms? Who decides which terms are to be used? Government? Religious writtings? Juries? Individial opinion? I hope that illistrates what I consider the ‘issue’ In the basest sense we agree (means), but we often don’t see the agreement over the arguements on the method. We picture the method to be a basic (and ‘wrong’) difference; where it isn’t. We can’t get along, because we hold our methods so closely that we can’t see the means anymore. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/69 "2006-04-25T19:58:43Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > …You know, that statistic is completely wrong. It counts only the number of people who wound up in morgues before and after the war. But the victims of secret police rarely wind up in a morgue. They wind up in mass graves or fed into woodchippers. So far, between 250,000 and 400,000 bodies have been found in mass graves in Iraq. This does not include Kurds killed by gas, or the Shiites that were killed in reprisals from their uprising in 1991, or other publically-known killings. These are people who just ‘disappeared’. Family members dragged away in the night, or vanished on their way home from work. Shot in the back of the head for ‘disloyalty’ and disposed of in a shallow grave somewhere. That’s roughly 10-20,000 PER YEAR. You kinda trouble me with these statistics, **Sam**. You and I…a Canadian and a Texan…are steeped in our native cultures, and therefore men of modesty and restraint, not given to wild exaggeration. For instance, you will probably recall the British press item that suggested upwards of 100,000 Iraqis had (presumably gladly) given thier lives in the cause of their liberation. I rather imagine you regarded that number with some reservation, nay, suspicion. You might have suspected that such numbers as these masked an agenda. As well you might. But what of _these_ numbers, **Sam**? You directly contradict numbers offered by **Red Shirt** , and then offer your own set with no more corroboration than he did. Have you considered the possiblility, however remote, that these numbers are offered by persons with an agenda, and hence, suspect? How does one go about numbering a mass grave? I’ve no idea. I vaguely recall the places you speak of, but only once or twice, and they seem to have entered the discussion as truth incarnate. Are they? I know, without question, that Saddam is a very bad man, but these numbers would make Idi Amin Dada whimper and flee, to hide under his bed with his banky, sucking his thumb. Most of the testimony I’ve heard suggest that the average Iraqi was under no particular threat so long as he managed not to call attention to himself, there were no roving caravans of roving wood-chippers seizing passersby and rendering them into socially useful compost on the streets of Baghdad (which is where most of this would have been likely to happen, being the place where so many lived…) Men like you and I, of calm and reflective temperment, must be alert to agenda. These numbers, for instance, suggest an agenda to retrofit our self-defense by way of pre-emptive strike motive with a new! improved! international Guardian Angel action. “Wasn’t about _us_, we did it for _them_.” In the words of Bugs Bunny, it is to laugh. So, where _did_ you get these numbers? Have you tracked their source and given it your usual relentless scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/70 "2006-04-26T02:35:20Z")
From the [U.S. Department of State](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm): > [@](#): > > Mass graves in Iraq are characterized as unmarked sites containing at least six bodies. Some can be identified by mounds of earth piled above the ground or as deep pits that appear to have been filled. Some older graves are more difficult to identify, having been covered by vegetation and debris over time. Sites have been discovered in all regions of the country and contain members of every major religious and ethnic group in Iraq as well as foreign nationals, including Kuwaitis and Saudis. Over 250 sites have been reported, of which approximately 40 have been confirmed to date. Over one million Iraqis are believed to be missing in Iraq as a result of executions, wars and defections, of whom hundreds of thousands are thought to be in mass graves. From [USAID](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html): > [@](#): > > Since the Saddam Hussein regime was overthrown in May, 270 mass graves have been reported. By mid-January, 2004, the number of confirmed sites climbed to fifty-three. Some graves hold a few dozen bodies—their arms lashed together and the bullet holes in the backs of skulls testimony to their execution. Other graves go on for hundreds of meters, densely packed with thousands of bodies. > > “We’ve already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves,” said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein’s regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. “Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been ‘disappeared’ by the Iraqi government over the past two decades,” said the group in a statement in May. “Many of these ‘disappeared’ are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq.” > > If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot’s Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II. From [Archaologists for Human Rights:](http://afhr.org/en/graves.html?lang=en) > [@](#): > > Known mass grave sites in Iraq > > One of the most threatening challenges facing the new Iraqi government and the Iraqi society is the horrible heritage of the Baath terror. Until now more than 260 mass graves have been located all over Iraq and their number increases daily. Only few of them are cemeteries containing numbered graves where the executed political prisoners can be identified, but most of them are unmarked mass graves. The number of missing persons in Iraq comes up to 1.3 million. Most them will be found in mass graves: the deported men of the Barzani tribe (1983), victims of the Iran-Iraq war (1980-88), the victims of the „Anfal“ campaign (1987-89), tens of thousands of Shias after 1991, furthermore Turkmens, Assyrian christians, Marsh Arabs, political prisoners and prisoners of war. For the surviving family members of these victims the current post-war situation is overshadowed by grief after decades of uncertainty regarding the fate of their loved ones, and they are tired of promises of international support. From [Human Rights Watch](http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/iraq/graves/): > [@](#): > > During the past thirty years, the government of Saddam Hussein engaged in three wars and numerous campaigns to repress the Kurdish, Shi`a, and Marsh Arab populations, resulting in the disappearance—and, most certainly, the deaths–of between 250,000 and 290,000 people.47 By February 2004, the Combined Forensic Team of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) had collected information on 259 mass graves in Iraq. Of these, U.S. military criminal investigation teams had conducted preliminary assessments of fifty-five sites by February 2004. This last is a heavily footnoted, comprehensive report including forensic evidence, photographic evidence, eye witness accounts, documentary evidence, From [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_grave) > [@](#): > > Over one million Iraqis are believed to be missing in Iraq as a result of executions, wars and defections, of whom hundreds of thousands are thought to be in mass graves. > > Most of the graves discovered to date correspond to one of five major atrocities perpetrated by the regime. > [ul] > [li] 1983 attack against Kurdish citizens belonging to the Barzani tribe, 8,000 of whom were rounded up by the regime in northern Iraq and executed in deserts at great distances from their homes. [/li][li] 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as 182,000 people disappeared. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves. [/li][li]Chemical attacks against Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988, including the Halabja attack, when the Iraqi Air Force dropped sarin, VX and tabun chemical agents on the civilian population, killing 5,000 people immediately and causing long-term medical problems, related deaths, and birth defects among the progeny of thousands more. [/li][li]The 1991 massacre of Iraqi Shia Muslims after the Shia uprising at the end of the Gulf war, in which tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians in such regions as Basra and Al-Hillah were killed. [/li][li]A massacre of Kurds in 1991, which targeted civilians and soldiers who fought for autonomy in northern Iraq after the Gulf war, also resulted in mass graves.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/71 "2006-04-26T02:53:39Z")
Of course, human rights reports were ignored when Saddam was our friend, but one cite there shows once again, this time on verifying the evidence, the current administration yet again found a way to mess up: From the Human Rights Watch cite: > [@](#): > > The report focuses on two major sources of that evidence, documentary and forensic. It surveys what’s been done—and not done—by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority and the interim Iraqi authorities since the invasion of March-April 2003 to preserve the evidence, and assess the implications for justice for Ba‘thist era abuses and for some resolution regarding the fate of victims whose families live with uncertainty. > > In the case of both documents and mass graves, U.S.-led coalition forces failed to secure the relevant sites at the time of the overthrow of the former government. They subsequently failed to put in place the professional expertise and assistance necessary to ensure proper classification and exhumation procedures, with the result that key evidentiary materials have been lost or tainted. In the case of mass graves, these failures also have frustrated the goal of enabling families to know the fate of missing relatives. The findings of the report are all the more disturbing against the backdrop of a tribunal established to bring justice for serious past crimes, the Iraqi Special Tribunal. Human Rights Watch has serious concerns that the tribunal is fundamentally flawed and may be incapable of delivering justice. > > The extent of the negligence with which key documentary and forensic evidence has been treated to date is surprising, given that the U.S.-led coalition and Iraqi authorities alike knew that trials of Hussein and key Ba‘th government officials would be important landmarks in Iraq’s political recovery, that successful trials require solid evidence, and that, as international experience has shown, preserving such trial-ready evidence is a difficult task. Some of the evidence has been destroyed, but it is not too late to assume custody of millions of additional pieces of evidence. Some of this material, if it is given the urgent attention it needs and deserves, may prove critical in the proceedings of the upcoming trials. It will also play an important role as Iraqis attempt to construct an accurate historical record of their traumatic experiences under Ba‘th Party rule. > > Human Rights Watch strongly urges the Interim Government of Iraq to set up a Commission for Missing Persons, comprised of international as well as Iraqi experts, to establish effective procedures for protecting mass graves and conducting exhumations, and to oversee implementation of such a system. The government should similarly appoint a committee, again utilizing international as well as Iraqi expertise, to set standards for and oversee the handling of documents of the former government. Seeing that groups in the new government are involved in current death squads, I don’t hold my breath on seeing progress here. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/72 "2006-04-26T14:56:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > That’s another thing. I’m tired of argument by attrition with these people - they keep demanding more and more cites from “my” side, but almost never provide any of their own. And the same damn stupid arguments keep coming back up, as if we’re going to suddenly turn stupid and forget something. I suspect I coined Argument By Attrition. That, or I subconsciously jacked it from somoene else. Anyone know? -Joe, contributor ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/73 "2006-04-26T15:41:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I suspect I coined Argument By Attrition. > > That, or I subconsciously jacked it from somoene else. Anyone know? > > -Joe, contributor I think I stole the phrase from you. It came up in one of those “did we let Bin Laden escape” threads I think. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673/74 "2006-04-26T18:14:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I think I stole the phrase from you. It came up in one of those “did we let Bin Laden escape” threads I think. **FINALLY** I have the chance to be remembered as something other than the guy with the 13" penis. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/leftists-rightists-centrists-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along/353673.md?page=3)