# Lefty Loosey or Leften Loosen?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [March 3, 2023, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636 "2023-03-03T06:26:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/41 "2023-03-04T09:56:26Z")
This thread just proves that my dad was right all along: “Clock Lock” is the best. It’s more succinct; it doesn’t involve any cutesy made-up words; and it’s perfectly clear: turn something clockwise to lock it in place, turn it counterclockwise to unlock it. Simple and easy to remember.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/42 "2023-03-04T09:57:23Z")
I’ve heard “righty-tighty, lefty-loosey” my whole life.
Never heard the other version until this thread.
My guess is that whoever Tripolar learned this from is the person who made it up.
It’s like “candy beans”.
[ ](https://y.yarn.co/44216c1f-5902-4994-975b-2ba2d3c62f3e_text.gif)
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/43 "2023-03-04T14:13:02Z")
> [@DPRK](#):
>
> There is no way to turn something to the right or left.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> I can turn it towards my right or my left. That’s what the saying is about
> [@BigT](#):
>
> You can turn the top towards your right or left, but you will automatically be turning the bottom the other direction.
Yeah, that’s the point. To turn something towards your right means that the top goes to the right, which means that the bottom goes to the left. But it’s fine to think of that as turning to the right if it helps you remember (and for me, it does).
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/44 "2023-03-04T15:28:51Z")
What if the object is turning on a vertical axis. There’s no top or bottom.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/45 "2023-03-04T16:03:09Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> You can turn the top towards your right or left, but you will automatically be turning the bottom the other direction
The “bottom” is often something that isn’t turning. And even if it is turning, that doesn’t matter. The mnemonic is meant to apply to the nut (or the female half of the fitting), not the bolt; the nut or female fitting being the part you’ve usually got your wrench, or more skilled hand, on.
> [@DPRK](#):
>
> I speculated that it has to do with the “right-hand rule”. That rule does not say that you turn anything to the right or left, however. It means that if you have a right-handed coordinate system (or screw), the positive orientation is as illustrated:
I don’t find that useful at all, just confusing. Our heads apparently work differently about spatial organization.
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> What if the object is turning on a vertical axis. There’s no top or bottom
One reason I put “bottom” in quotes is that in practice the bolt, or hose, or whatever I’m dealing with is often not straight up and down (thereby providing a bottom and a top) but in some other orientation. The right-left distinction still works fine for me.
– many years ago, in what was in many ways a different world, I was taught the correct way to remove and replace plates during a dinner party: remove the old plate from the right of the person sitting at the table, put the new one down from their left. To remember this they taught us “Raise right, lower left.”
The people who taught me that would have been shocked to learn the context in which I actually find it useful: to remember which way to turn the handle which adjusts the angle of the three-point-hitch on farm tractors. (Though I expect @TriPolar is pleased that that particular mnemonic is made up of actual words.)
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/46 "2023-03-04T16:22:27Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> > [@BigT](#):
> >
> > You can turn the top towards your right or left, but you will automatically be turning the bottom the other direction
>
> The “bottom” is often something that isn’t turning. And even if it is turning, that doesn’t matter. The mnemonic is meant to apply to the nut (or the female half of the fitting), not the bolt; the nut or female fitting being the part you’ve usually got your wrench, or more skilled hand, on.
No, what I mean by “bottom” in this case is the bottom of the circle. When you turn a circle, you turn all the sides, including the top and bottom. My point was DPRK is factually correct when they say you can’t actually turn something left or right, and that’s why we came up with the words “clockwise” and “counterclockwise.”
I’m fully aware the reason we use “righty tighty, lefty loosy” is because we think about the top of the circle turning, not the bottom. Usually the circle is below our eye level, so it makes sense we focus on the top side. But, still, DPRK is factually correct that we can’t actually turn a circle left or right.
That’s all.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/47 "2023-03-04T16:45:40Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> No, what I mean by “bottom” in this case is the bottom of the circle. When you turn a circle, you turn all the sides, including the top and bottom.
Huh? When I turn a nut to the right, both the bottom and the top of the nut are moving to the right. If they weren’t, the nut would fall apart.
Do you mean that if you were looking at it upside down, it would appear to be turning the other way? That’s why you have to either be looking at it from the direction of the fitting you’re turning, or to imagine yourself looking at it from that direction. But that doesn’t mean that you’re not turning it to the right or the left – that only means that “right” and “left” are directions that are by their nature taken from the perspective of the viewer. They don’t mean anything at all, in any context, if you’re not taking that perspective into account.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/48 "2023-03-04T17:15:38Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> The people who taught me that would have been shocked to learn the context in which I actually find it useful: to remember which way to turn the handle which adjusts the angle of the three-point-hitch on farm tractors. (Though I expect @TriPolar is pleased that that particular mnemonic is made up of actual words.)
It doesn’t matter to me much whether real words are used or not because I’ve never been bound by the elitist notion of proper vocabulation. It’s just inefficient to make up new words when existing ones will do. Still, even though I’m unlikely to deal with anything but the top link in a 3 point hitch to be used in a machine I have some plans for, I will adopt the ‘raise right, lower left’ mnemonic for the directional protocol henceforth and forthwith.
(For those interested, 3 point hitches and components are available from your local Tractor Supply store. They also sell nuts and bolts by the pound in case you need practice with thread usage.)
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/49 "2023-03-04T17:21:40Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Huh? When I turn a nut to the right, both the bottom and the top of the nut are moving to the right.
Huh?
[ ](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/4f31eda8cb127c78280d11d8/98b7bd87-5548-4a97-a3b2-33e3add963dd/Righty_Tighty_Lefty_Loosey_cropped.png)
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/50 "2023-03-04T17:55:14Z")
The entire nut is turning in the same direction. Otherwise it would fall apart.
It turns right if you’re LOOKING at if from one end of the nut. It turns left if you’re LOOKING at it from the other end of the nut. But it’s in neither case turning in two directions at once!
And the entire convention for this is that you’re looking at the nut from the end that first comes off the bolt.
Or you might be looking at the hex fitting on the other end of the bolt – say, if the bolt’s holding together a bit of the engine housing, and the nut’s on the inside. (Or there is no nut, because the bolt goes into a threaded part of the tractor.) In that case, “righty tighty lefty loosy” applies to the bolt end; because that’s the end you’re looking at it from.
If somebody says to you ‘that chair on the right side of the room’, do you say ‘the chair’s on both the left side and the right side of the room’? I’d be really surprised if you do, in any sort of ordinary conversation. If you and the person saying that are facing in different directions, you might say ‘your right or my right?’ But you wouldn’t say the chair’s on both sides of the room at once.
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> (For those interested, 3 point hitches and components are available from your local Tractor Supply store. They also sell nuts and bolts by the pound in case you need practice with thread usage.)
True. Around here, at least, also two other farm supply stores for the hitches and components; and for the nuts and bolts by the pound all of those plus most hardware stores.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/51 "2023-03-04T18:14:50Z")
This thread makes me feel like nobody but me ever thinks of this in terms of how a steering wheel makes an automobile maneuver. If you turn the steering wheel clockwise, the car goes right, and counterclockwise makes the car go left. This, I have decreed, justifies calling a clockwise turn “right,” and a counterclockwise turn “left.”
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### Author:  [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/52 "2023-03-04T18:22:00Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> It turns right if you’re LOOKING at if from one end of the nut. It turns left if you’re LOOKING at it from the other end of the nut. But it’s in neither case turning in two directions at once!
The image in the post above yours shows exactly what is meant by the top turning right and the bottom moving left. I don’t know why you are having such a hard time with this.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/53 "2023-03-04T18:23:49Z")
Because if the top is moving right and the bottom is simultaneously moving left the nut would fall apart. The bottom of the nut is moving right if the top of the nut is moving right, presuming that you’re looking at them from the same direction; which unless you’re two different people you’d have to be, at any given moment.
“Right” and “left” are by their essence relative terms. You have to know the position of the observer to know what they mean in any given instance. They mean nothing at all without that information.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/54 "2023-03-04T21:36:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > Huh? When I turn a nut to the right, both the bottom and the top of the nut are moving to the right.
>
> Huh?
> [https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/4f31eda8cb127c78280d11d8/98b7bd87-5548-4a97-a3b2-33e3add963dd/Righty\_Tighty\_Lefty\_Loosey\_cropped.png](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/4f31eda8cb127c78280d11d8/98b7bd87-5548-4a97-a3b2-33e3add963dd/Righty_Tighty_Lefty_Loosey_cropped.png)
Yes. of course.
And the whole point of the phrase “turn something right” or “turn something left” is that by _convention_ the _only_ side of the thing that matters for the purposes of interpreting the phrase is whichever part of the rotating thing appears to be the “_top_” from the POV of whoever is looking at it. IOW more in the direction of your head than your feet. Or even more precisely, more in the direction of your forehead than your chin.
Any other objections are pointless pedantry.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/55 "2023-03-06T22:36:46Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> “Right” and “left” are by their essence relative terms. You have to know the position of the observer to know what they mean in any given instance. They mean nothing at all without that information.
Of course. Let’s use a real-world example; let’s say you have something that has a bolt going through it, and a nut beneath to keep the bolt from falling out, like this picture:
[ ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Bolt-with-nut.jpg/1200px-Bolt-with-nut.jpg)
Let’s say that the bolt is oriented vertically, going through the material with the head on top and the nut below, as in this picture:
[ ](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-013f56bf678bf9b864aa994002dcba6c)
A common way to remove this item would be to have a wrench keeping the head steady, and a ratchet below that you are rotating back and forth to remove the nut. In doing so, you are removing the nut “upside-down” and relative to where you are standing above, it is going “righty-loosey”.
I sometimes have to remind myself when I’m in this situation that things are backwards, so that I don’t get confused and tighten something I am trying to loosen (or vice-versa). The mnemonic is not universal by any means.
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### Author:  [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2023, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/56 "2023-03-06T22:59:25Z")
> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> a ratchet below that you are rotating back and forth to remove the nut.
That’s one of the great features about the ratchet. Before you put it on the nut, you make sure that it’s ‘set’ the correct way: clockwise to tighten, counter-clockwise to loosen.
Now, if you don’t have a rachet, or the nut is such that you cannot get a socket on it, then you’re on your own.
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### Author:  [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/57 "2023-03-06T23:03:05Z")
> [@Railer13](#):
>
> That’s one of the great features about the ratchet. Before you put it on the nut, you make sure that it’s ‘set’ the correct way: clockwise to tighten, counter-clockwise to loosen.
I love ratchets so much. One of my old jobs had me doing a lot of bike building and bike repair, and when you’re doing that for hours a ratchet saves you so much time and (literal) pain.
And you have a good point; technically a ratchet is going to do its job as long as you set it correctly no matter how you put it. But what I meant was that if I’m paying attention and thinking in my head, this is the way I need to turn it to loosen it (or whatever), I have to remind myself that it’s backwards. Because even with a ratchet, you feel it turning the nut when you are moving it one way, and feel/hear it ratcheting with that clicking sound as it’s moving the other way, and you might trick yourself into thinking you’re doing it wrong.
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### Author:  [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/58 "2023-03-06T23:24:43Z")
> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> you might trick yourself into thinking you’re doing it wrong.
Oh, believe me, I’ve convinced myself multiple times that I’m turning it the wrong way! Particularly if the nut is stubborn and doesn’t want to loosen.
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### Author:  [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/59 "2023-03-06T23:51:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Where and when? I have _never_ heard the latter.
Nor have I.
“Righten” is marginally a word, like ‘funner’, in my modest opinion. ‘Make right’ sounds much more pleasant to cultured ears. 🙂 ). Leften is right out.
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### Author:  [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lefty-loosey-or-leften-loosen/980636/60 "2023-03-07T00:00:42Z")
Leften loosen is wrong. It’s righty-tighty lefty loosey. This is the way.
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