# Legacy of Kissinger/Nixon/the CIA WRT 1973 coup in Chile **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691 "2006-12-11T15:38:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/1 "2006-12-11T15:38:33Z")
Augusto Pinochet has died – I’ve started [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399625) thread to debate his legacy. But what about the legacy of the Americans who [may or may not have helped him come to power?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#1973) Certainly the U.S. government opposed Allende and did everything it could undermine his government and cripple Chile’s economy. Certainly the U.S. government supported the coup and immediately recognized Pinochet’s junta after it came to power. But what role, if any, the CIA played in the coup is still debated. Issues for debate: 1. What exactly was the U.S. role in the coup? 2. Assuming it was involved, then, in hindsight, was that a good or bad decision? An admirable achievement, or a crime? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/2 "2006-12-11T15:47:30Z")
Concurrent [MPSIMS thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399592) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/3 "2006-12-11T18:33:21Z")
For my part, as I’ve mentioned in this forum before, I’d love to see the U.S. sign the International Criminal Court treaty **just** so Kissinger can be brought to trial for crimes against humanity before he dies – in connection with Chile, never mind Vietnam or Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/4 "2006-12-11T19:30:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] For my part, as I’ve mentioned in this forum before, I’d love to see the U.S. sign the International Criminal Court treaty **just** so Kissinger can be brought to trial for crimes against humanity before he dies – in connection with Chile, never mind Vietnam or Cambodia. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t that also entail putting assorted presidents, secretaries of state, national security advisors and all the rest of the foreign policy machinery on trial? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/5 "2006-12-11T19:35:57Z")
[QUOTE=slaphead] Wouldn’t that also entail putting assorted presidents, secretaries of state, national security advisors and all the rest of the foreign policy machinery on trial? [/QUOTE] Probably. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/6 "2006-12-12T09:09:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Augusto Pinochet has died – I’ve started [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399625) thread to debate his legacy. But what about the legacy of the Americans who [may or may not have helped him come to power?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#1973) Certainly the U.S. government opposed Allende and did everything it could undermine his government and cripple Chile’s economy. Certainly the U.S. government supported the coup and immediately recognized Pinochet’s junta after it came to power. But what role, if any, the CIA played in the coup is still debated. Issues for debate: 1. What exactly was the U.S. role in the coup? 2. Assuming it was involved, then, in hindsight, was that a good or bad decision? An admirable achievement, or a crime? [/QUOTE] The US role was probably limited to the type of help mentioned in Wikipedia. Financial assistance to various opposition parties. The economic chaos and hyperinflation in Allende’s 2nd and 3rd year would have had a much larger impact than that and overshadowed the effect of whatever amounts of money the CIA gave Allende’s political opponents. Neither the US, nor any other country, has ever been powerful enough to get rid of national leaders by such limited means, although the more wild eyed seem to think that the US possesses magical powers and can change national leaders without overtly employing its own military force - not even that buffoon who runs Venezuela really believes that. If the US was involved in such a limited way it could hardly take credit for what happened next so it’s not valid to blame the US for destroying a MXist dream. The coup against Allende was a primarily domestic event and a reasonably well balanced summary is provided in the Wikipedia article. As to whether the outcome was an admirable achievement or a crime, that would depend on the extent to which Allende followed the policies of a man he admired, Fidel Castro, and have Chile end up with who knows how many dead political opponents to build up socialism. Castro’s legacy re his killings of his political opponents in Cuba are also in Wikipedia: [Human rights in Cuba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba) > [@](#): > > The author of the Historical Atlas, a online personal compilation of various sources summarizes his findings as follows: “The dividing line between those who have an axe to grind and those who don’t falls in the 5,000-12,000 range.” > The highest estimates are given by R.J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Hawaii. He gives the number of 73,000 as the mid-point estimate of victims of the alleged democide by the Castro administration. His low and high estimates are 35,000 and 141,000 respectively. One important reason his numbers are higher than those from other sources is because he counts the estimated deaths of refugees trying to flee and for example drowning as democide. Perhaps Harry Turtledove could help us out on the second question. _Targo_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/7 "2006-12-12T17:43:16Z")
Interesting. But what’s “democide”? The murder of democracy? The murder of those who support democracy? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/8 "2006-12-12T17:49:16Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Interesting. But what’s “democide”? The murder of democracy? The murder of those who support democracy? Something else? [/QUOTE] > **[Democide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide)** > > Democide, or populicide, is "the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command". The term democide, coined by Holocaust historian and statistics expert R. J. Rummel in his book Death by Government, has been described by Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer as a better term than genocide to refer to certain types of mass killing. According to Rummel, this definition covers a wide Rumm... > [@](#): > > Rummel defines democide as “The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder”. For example, government-sponsored killings for political reasons would be considered democide. Democide can also include deaths arising from “intentionally or knowingly reckless and depraved disregard for life”; this brings into account many deaths arising through various neglects and abuses, such as forced mass starvation. Rummel explicitly excludes battle deaths in his definition. Capital punishment, actions taken against armed civilians during mob action or riot, and the deaths of noncombatants killed during attacks on military targets so long as the primary target is military, are not considered democide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/9 "2006-12-12T18:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] The US role was probably limited to the type of help mentioned in Wikipedia. Financial assistance to various opposition parties. The economic chaos and hyperinflation in Allende’s 2nd and 3rd year would have had a much larger impact than that and overshadowed the effect of whatever amounts of money the CIA gave Allende’s political opponents. Neither the US, nor any other country, has ever been powerful enough to get rid of national leaders by such limited means, although the more wild eyed seem to think that the US possesses magical powers and can change national leaders without overtly employing its own military force - not even that buffoon who runs Venezuela really believes that. If the US was involved in such a limited way it could hardly take credit for what happened next so it’s not valid to blame the US for destroying a MXist dream. The coup against Allende was a primarily domestic event and a reasonably well balanced summary is provided in the Wikipedia article. [/QUOTE] Yes, well, [here’s](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/CIA_Allende_LS.html) another POV. See also [here](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Kissinger_extradite.html). You can also read the full text of declassified Chile-related U.S. government cables, from 1970 through 1976, [here](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8i.htm) and [here.](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/10 "2006-12-12T18:57:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] For my part, as I’ve mentioned in this forum before, I’d love to see the U.S. sign the International Criminal Court treaty **just** so Kissinger can be brought to trial for crimes against humanity before he dies – in connection with Chile, never mind Vietnam or Cambodia. [/QUOTE] > [@Susie Derkins](#): > > And as long as I’m dreaming, I’d like a pony. I do not believe this wish is particularly realistic – an interesting irony considering the “reality-based” meme that was such the rage a while ago. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/11 "2006-12-12T20:04:51Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I do not believe this wish is particularly realistic – an interesting irony considering the “reality-based” meme that was such the rage a while ago. [/QUOTE] It may or may not be interesting, but I don’t find it ironic. It would be one thing if the targets of the “reality-based” jibes were statements such as “I’d _love_ to see the end of personal income taxes and Halliburton get $1 Billion a day for free”, rather than _outright stating_ certain things were true when they turned out to be false. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/12 "2006-12-13T04:34:41Z")
I found out yesterday, to my astonishment, that Australia’s modest little intelligence assets were [used by the CIA](http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2006/12/11/1165685615238.html) as part of this coup. Despite being alive and aware at the time I somehow missed this. It was only stopped when the conservative government here were thrown out in 1972. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/13 "2006-12-13T15:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] I found out yesterday, to my astonishment, that Australia’s modest little intelligence assets were [used by the CIA](http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2006/12/11/1165685615238.html) as part of this coup. Despite being alive and aware at the time I somehow missed this. It was only stopped when the conservative government here were thrown out in 1972. [/QUOTE] Interesting story. I wonder why the _Herald_ agreed so easily to ASIS’ demand it stop its follow-up investigation? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/14 "2006-12-13T17:31:54Z")
Threatening to nationalize the oil is the key. Ask Iran how that worked for them. We get right in there when countries threaten that. Whether they are Democracies is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legacy-of-kissinger-nixon-the-cia-wrt-1973-coup-in-chile/383691/15 "2006-12-13T22:54:42Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Threatening to nationalize the oil is the key. Ask Iran how that worked for them. We get right in there when countries threaten that. Whether they are Democracies is irrelevant. [/QUOTE] 😕 Does Chile **have** oil? Evo Morales proposes to [nationalize Bolivia’s natural gas,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales#Nationalization_of_natural_gas_industry) but nobody’s talking about invading . . . yet . . .