# Legal advice on traffic matter **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 17, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260 "2015-05-17T19:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/61 "2015-05-18T20:47:03Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > There is a local lawyer with a great track record in court. You may have heard of him. Goes by the name of John Edwards. 🙂 He doesn’t exactly have the reputation for pro bono fighting for the little guy work. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/62 "2015-05-18T20:53:14Z")
Rumor has it Mr. Edwards likes to hang out in local bars trolling for women these days. but I guess this time around he will use trojans or maybe he got himself fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/63 "2015-05-18T21:18:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But when he cites Jesus, he’s actually quoting Elvis. Jesus probably had left the building. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/64 "2015-05-18T21:22:07Z")
When they put up a new casino near the Iowa/South Dakota border, the state of Iowa installed red-light cameras to catch the out-of-staters (ie South Dakotans). The governor of SD decided SDans should not have to pay such tickets. [Here’s](http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4372.asp) how they took care of it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/65 "2015-05-18T21:32:52Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > Just a thought popped into my brain. Let us decide that we are bad. We will appeal because we have an alibi. Not really, but we show up with 50 other people and say"I lent my car to Bob." Bob gets up and says “Yes I did borrow her car, and ran the light possibly. I did let John drive a while.” John gets up and says “Yes I do believe I was driving when I ran the light.” > > This continues on with several more people. I never went to lawyering school, but how would this play out? I believe the owner of the car is responsible to pay the ticket unless another driver can be identified. So if we have a positive ID then John pays, otherwise the owner pays. Either way, the government gets paid. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/66 "2015-05-18T21:41:27Z")
You know what the easiest way is to avoid paying red-light camera tickets? Don’t run red lights. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/67 "2015-05-18T22:00:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That seems shitty; why didn’t they continue to go after 80% of the amount owed on the people who didn’t pay? When the people of my city voted out the cameras, the language of the charter amendment forbade the city from doing _anything_ to enforce the ordinance allowing the program. I think the money is still set aside six years later because they’re afraid that spending the money might also be prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/68 "2015-05-18T22:19:16Z")
Wasn’t there a case about requesting the source code of such a ticketing camera that the company was not so willing to go along with. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/69 "2015-05-18T23:29:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’ll assume that means you ran the light. > > That will not happen at the initial hearing level. You will have to be willing to take it through several levels of appeals. That means either paying a lot of money for a lawyer or doing it pro se and probably getting your ass kicked. Is that what you are looking to do? > > By the way good luck with it. I don’t recommend committing any motor vehicle offenses but I hate those cameras. Just a money grab with no real law enforcement value. Red light running is not a victimless crime. One such person almost killed my wife. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the OP. This is purely anecdotal, but there is a red light camera near me, and since they put it in about five years ago the incidence of red light running at that intersection is way down. I don’t know about the number of accidents there. San Jose does not have red light cameras, and many intersections have at least one person running the light per cycle. If the camera is owned and operated by the company, which is likely, 80% of the revenue going to them sounds reasonable, since city expenses are minimal. Another issue is that revenue declines over time since most drivers learn not to run the light. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/70 "2015-05-19T01:03:24Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Jesus probably had left the building. he’ll be back… ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/71 "2015-05-19T01:13:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You know what the easiest way is to avoid paying red-light camera tickets? > > Don’t run red lights. Except that often they’ll shorten the yellow time to get more fines. [Cite.](http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/yellow-lights) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I understand, every dollar the government collects from these red-light camera companies is a dollar other folks don’t have to pay in taxes. As long as the ticket is for a reasonable amount for the infraction, it seems to me like a win-win situation. I win by being safer on the roads, and I win by paying less in taxes. The problem is that this ends up as a conflict of interest-safety vs. revenue collecting, where the desired ends most definitely are guaranteed not to dovetail. If you want to collect revenue, do it above the board and honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/72 "2015-05-19T11:24:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Red light running is not a victimless crime. One such person almost killed my wife. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the OP. > > This is purely anecdotal, but there is a red light camera near me, and since they put it in about five years ago the incidence of red light running at that intersection is way down. I don’t know about the number of accidents there. San Jose does not have red light cameras, and many intersections have at least one person running the light per cycle. > > If the camera is owned and operated by the company, which is likely, 80% of the revenue going to them sounds reasonable, since city expenses are minimal. Another issue is that revenue declines over time since most drivers learn not to run the light. Well for one thing it isn’t a crime it’s a motor vehicle violation. In the case of camera tickets it’s not even that, it’s a civil offense. And if there is no accident there is no victim. I have stood behind someone and watched them go through video after video approving tickets. I would have no problem if it were only people who blow through red lights. That is dangerous and the should be caught. However, the vast majority of the tickets given were right turn on red tickets where the person clearly ensured that it was safe to proceed although technically their tires never quite stopped turning. Around 90% were right on red tickets. Any discretion the approving officer had was gone because they kept track of your approval rate and you got in trouble if it went below a certain percentage. The camera company would rat on you if you were costing them money. But at least here you had your day in court. The situation in NC sounds bizarre. Here if you pled not guilty you went to regular traffic court in front of a judge. By law every ticket and video had to be approved by a police officer. The camera company was left out of the loop. Red light cameras are a money grab. Enforcement should not be used mainly as a revenue stream. It becomes just another tax on the working class. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/73 "2015-05-19T13:22:28Z")
in a funny twist, last night I went to a meeting. In the same building was the local office of the ACLU 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/74 "2015-05-19T13:33:49Z")
Are you suggesting that the ACLU might be interested in fighting this on civil liberties grounds? I doubt it, but you might be right. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/75 "2015-05-19T13:36:56Z")
No, I am sure the ACLU has far more requests than they can handle and this would be very low priority for them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/76 "2015-05-19T13:37:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have stood behind someone and watched them go through video after video approving tickets. I would have no problem if it were only people who blow through red lights. That is dangerous and the should be caught. However, the vast majority of the tickets given were right turn on red tickets where the person clearly ensured that it was safe to proceed although technically their tires never quite stopped turning. Around 90% were right on red tickets. Any discretion the approving officer had was gone because they kept track of your approval rate and you got in trouble if it went below a certain percentage. The camera company would rat on you if you were costing them money. It sounds to me, then, like it’s a problem with the way the law is written. If the law improperly penalizes someone who engages in a safe behavior (like coming to an almost-complete stop, ensuring there’s no oncoming traffic, then turning right), shouldn’t the law itself be changed? I do see what folks are saying, about the conflict of interest. Not sure what the right solution to that is. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/77 "2015-05-19T13:50:02Z")
Are you suggesting that it’s okay to not abide the law should you feel it’s perfectly safe not to? I thought part of why there was rules of the road was because letting people decide for themselves what’s safe doesn’t really work out so well. I’m in the camp that feels if red light camera income helps reduce city tax increases I’m all for them. If you don’t want to follow all the rules, all the time, then you should suck it up and pay when you do get caught. Without a fight. Just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/78 "2015-05-19T13:51:56Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > actually some studies have shown there are more wrecks because people _ **slam on brakes to avoid a ticket** _. Then they get rear ended . > > BTW 5th ammendent does apply to civil cases but it’s not exactly the same. > > I’m also kind of curious to see what kind of flunkies they send to these appeal hearings. Clearly it’s not going to be anybody with a law degree or anything close to that. Some might say they are “stopping to obey a traffic signal”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/79 "2015-05-19T13:52:19Z")
Wait, what? You think it’s wrong to change the law? Maybe you need to re-read LHoD’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260/80 "2015-05-19T15:14:26Z")
I think it’s fair to say that traffic laws are by far the most frequently ignored laws. For speed limits cops in most cases won’t give you a ticket unless you are doing 10+ over the limit. And even then they give out tons of speeding tickets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-advice-on-traffic-matter/720260.md?page=5)