# Legal and moral question re: parking ticket **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368 "2003-05-29T21:06:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/21 "2003-05-30T03:39:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*Would you _seriously_ expect the driver to pay the fine? \*\* I expect the car to come back the way it went out. I do not expect a ticket to be attached when it is returned. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/22 "2003-05-30T04:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by billy \* > \*\*I expect the car to come back the way it went out. I do not expect a ticket to be attached when it is returned. Simple as that. \*\* If the ticket were the result of the driver’s irresponsibility, I would agree with you. However, this ticket was a result of the _owner’s_ irresponsibility. Why should the driver pay for something that isn’t his fault? If I were to borrow a friend’s car, I wouldn’t do a full inspection; I’d to assume that the owner had the car in proper working condition, and everything was legal. If the owner didn’t want a ticket, he should’ve properly affixed the plate himself, as was his legal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/23 "2003-05-30T04:20:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*If the ticket were the result of the driver’s irresponsibility, I would agree with you. However, this ticket was a result of the _owner’s_ irresponsibility. Why should the driver pay for something that isn’t his fault? \*\* We’re not gonna come to an agreement on this. I understand your point but feel more stongly about the drivers responsibility to control his personal situation than you do. Let’s agree to diagree on this and I 'll work on not calling people names anymore.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/24 "2003-05-30T04:26:06Z")
You know, the MO law just might be written to say “the vehicle must display both plates if it is registered in a state which requires such.” My internet connection’s going rather slowly so I’ll ask for the Teeming Millions to give a shot at finding a link to the MO law in question here. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/25 "2003-05-30T04:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by billy \* > **I understand your point but feel more stongly about the drivers responsibility to control his personal situation than you do.** I believe in the driver being responsible for his own situation, too. I just feel that there are certain responsibilities contingent on ownership of the vehicle that cannot be transferred to the driver. Insurance, for example. If the car is not insured, it is the owner’s fault, no matter _who_ is driving. My take on this situation is that, by actively placing the front plate on the dash, the owner implicitly accepted responsibility for that action, tickets included. > [@](#): > > **Let’s agree to diagree on this** Agreed. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f0a364/32.png) [@Omar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/26 "2003-05-30T04:33:12Z")
If the car was ticketed in a jurisdiction that doesn’t REQUIRE a front plate at all, then I would fight it. Unless your state or local town has stop backwards ordinance that follows the laws of other states. But that in itself would seem not logical. Definitely fight it. And let us know the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/27 "2003-05-30T04:55:03Z")
Maybe it technically wouldn’t be “fair” for you to have to pay the ticket, but if you return this car to your friend with a ticket attached, rest assured that’ll be the last time you use your friend’s car. If you’re still friends after that. Fight it, but if you cant win, pay it. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/28 "2003-05-30T05:21:17Z")
**billy** is right. The owner did a kindness to **Homer** , and it would not be the act of a friend to repay that kindness by making him pay for a ticket. **Homer** borrowed the car in it’s entirety, and he was aware of the issue of the unattached license plate. If **Homer** wouldn’t have been aware of the problem, one could argue that the owner should have notified him. But **Homer** was aware of this, and chose to use the car anyway. If he was concerned about the plate, he could’ve either a) not borrowed the car, or b) affixed the plate. He chose to do neither. He chose to take advantage of his friends friendliness. If there’s money to be paid, he should pay it. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/29 "2003-05-30T05:24:44Z")
**Joe Random** wrote > [@](#): > > Insurance, for example. If the car is not insured, it is the owner’s fault, no matter who is driving. If the owner implies to the user that it’s insured, then yes it’s the owners fault if something comes up requiring insurance. But if the user knows it is not insured, then the user accepts that responsibility. And if he’s in an accident, it’s 100% his responsiblity and 0% the owners. In fact, in this example you cite, it’s not just a moral statement that it’s the users responsiblity. It’s also a legal statement. ---
**Author:** ![Xgemina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b5e925/32.png) [@Xgemina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xgemina)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/30 "2003-05-30T06:07:22Z")
**Monty** > [@](#): > > You know, the MO law just might be written to say “the vehicle must display both plates if it is registered in a state which requires such.” My internet connection’s going rather slowly so I’ll ask for the Teeming Millions to give a shot at finding a link to the MO law in question here. MO laws concerning licensing and display of plates are located in chapter 301 in the MO Revised Statutes. A quick read of Section 301.271 ( [http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C300-399/3010271.HTM](http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C300-399/3010271.HTM) ) seems to say that a nonresident may operate his vehicle in MO if it is duly registered in another state and follows the laws for the state where it is registered. Both MO, at 301.130(7), and TX, at 502.404(a), require license plates to be displayed at the front and rear of a passenger vehicle. [http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C300-399/3010130.HTM](http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C300-399/3010130.HTM) [http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ\_SESSION\_KEY=XPGPBZPMOLGR&CQ\_QUERY\_HANDLE=125274&CQ\_CUR\_DOCUMENT=2&CQ\_TLO\_DOC\_TEXT=YES](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ_SESSION_KEY=XPGPBZPMOLGR&CQ_QUERY_HANDLE=125274&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=2&CQ_TLO_DOC_TEXT=YES) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/31 "2003-05-30T11:39:31Z")
Thanks, Xgemina. ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/32 "2003-05-31T04:46:11Z")
I think the issue is settled. As much as I’d like to complain about it (and I am damn good about complaining, ask the mods) I think I will just swallow hard and pay the damn ticket for him. Thanks for posting the specifics, Xgemina, and thanks to everyone for the great discussion on the topic. Tim ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/33 "2003-05-31T05:57:51Z")
My comment above was really on a moral note, and was under the presumption that there is money to be paid… But on a practical note, if right now money is far more precious then time, it’s probably wise to make a few calls to the court and see about getting a court date on the matter. I’d be very surprised if you can’t. When you go to court, go with a picture showing the license plate affixed, and explain to the judge that a) it was a borrowed car. b) you really didn’t know. c) you fixed it immediately upon finding out it was a problem. d) you’re really really sorry. e) you’re broke. The odds are you can get the fine reduced or even eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/34 "2003-05-31T07:57:26Z")
Looks like the decision has been made, but just to add my view of the morality issue (skip it if you don’t care): . . . . The owner chose not to display his front plate properly, and (presumably) chose to accept the responsibility for that should he get caught. It probably should be the responsibility of anyone who happens to drive the car to check it over for safety and even look at the paper work to make sure it at least appears legal, but not to take steps to do required work himself. In fact, a driver who borrows the car has _no right_ to start fiddling and tinkering with someone else’s car sans the owner’s say-so… If it’s unsafe/unregistered (and he knows it), then he should not drive it - that’s where his responsibility ends; no less, no more. Should he choose to start tampering, that’s at his own risk, for better or worse. However the _onus_ is not on to him to replace broken mirrors, balding tires or pay for registration. In fact it’s not all that hard to imagine the owner getting madder than Hell at the borrower for example de-tinting the windows, or lowering that back end if it’s higher than the legal limit, even under the threat of impoundment. Yes, putting two screws into a license plate ain’t a burden in any sense, but the principal is the same, and it’s the principal that applies WRT morality. If an owner wants a car back the way he left it, then that should include it coming back with the plate still illegally displayed, and everything that happened because of the way he left it, **including the ticket**. Since this particular ticket _did not arise from the borrower’s decision to drive the car_ with it’s illegal plate display, he’s not responsible for that ticket. It was stated that the car was parked on a street where both the owner and borrower routinely left it; therefore it would have been ticketed whether **Homer** had driven it every day OR chose NOT to drive it and let it sit there for the past two weeks; in other words the owner had the ticket coming and it just so happened that he was out of town when his luck ran out. But being X number of miles away from his car the day the cops saw it doesn’t mean that someone else should foot the bill for a risk the owner chose to take. I don’t buy the “unfriendly act to let the owner pay for his own tickets” line… if there’s anything unfriendly it’s letting someone drive a car (or park it in front of their house) and then making that person pay for your negligence. It is however _very_ friendly to pay the ticket anyways… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/35 "2003-05-31T14:24:53Z")
Well, let’s hear what The Master has to say on this subject. Well, not _our_ Master exactly…but the next best thing: Randy Cohen, author of The New York Times’ **The Ethicist** column addresses a very similiar problem in [today’s column](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/magazine/01ETHICIST.html) (_free registraion required_): > [@](#): > > \*\*A woman borrowed her brother’s car, not knowing that it had a broken headlight. The minute she pulled out of the parking garage, she got a ticket. Who pays? Her brother, if he knew about the headlight but failed to warn her, I said. But if he didn’t know, then she’s on her own. Unexpected breakage is a risk every driver faces. \*\* That’s also my opinion. If you borrow a car, it’s your responsibility to make sure to complies with all laws & regulations. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/36 "2003-05-31T15:34:23Z")
Fantastically well put, **mmmiiikkkeee**. I think it would be very rude for the owner of the car to coerce **Homer** into paying for the ticket. Had **Homer** done just what many are suggesting he should - decline to operate the vehicle based on its illegality - the ticket would _still_ have been issued. The only way to have avoided the ticket would have been for **Homer** to start “fixing” the car - which surely no one will argue that he should have had the responsibility (and perhaps not even the authority) to do. Had he been pulled over while driving, I think the issue would be a bit more muddled; as it happened, I think it’s pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/37 "2003-05-31T17:03:47Z")
**mmmiiikkkeee** wrote > [@](#): > > However the onus is not on to him to replace broken mirrors, balding tires or pay for registration. In fact it’s not all that hard to imagine the owner getting madder than Hell at the borrower for example de-tinting the windows, or lowering that back end if it’s higher than the legal limit, even under the threat of impoundment. Yes, putting two screws into a license plate ain’t a burden in any sense, but the principal is the same, and it’s the principal that applies WRT morality. The principal is not the same. The examples you give involve a situation the owner desired in spite of it being illegal. The owner didn’t desire the license plate in the window. He just left it there and accepted the risk he’d be ticketed while he was using it. When **Homer** borrowed the car he took on all the benefits as well as the responsibilities. **brad\_d** wrote > [@](#): > > Had Homer done just what many are suggesting he should - decline to operate the vehicle based on its illegality - the ticket would still have been issued. Not necessarily true, but completely irrelevant. To say “if it wasn’t in his posesssion, the same thing would’ve happened” doesn’t matter because it **was** in his posession. It’s simply not moral to take on the beneficial parts of a friends loan and not the associated responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368/38 "2003-05-31T19:27:28Z")
Asked and answered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-moral-question-re-parking-ticket/178368.md?page=1)