# Legal and negotiable docs in the olden days **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 27, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118 "2015-03-27T14:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/1 "2015-03-27T14:42:53Z")
A couple of different questions… 1. Before copy machines, I would imagine that there was an established system of making “certified” copies. Who did it…lawyers…notary publics?? Were complete copies required so that passages couldn’t be taken out of context? 1. I often read of a 19th century check-like system where someone would give someone a “draft” that he could negotiate elsewhere. Anyone know more about how that worked…seems like it would be wide open to all kinds of fraud. Perhaps 19th century punishments effectively deterred it more than the wrist slapping that occurs today.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/2 "2015-03-27T17:46:38Z")
As to Q2 - remember that professional printing was a relatively rare capability in the “good old days”. (See Leonardo di Caprio in _Catch Me If You Can_, simulating fancy coloured Pan Am logos in order to fake payroll cheques, by simply using the transfer decals from model airplanes.) A high quality multicolour and embossed printed document was incredibly difficult to fake without huge investment in an offset press. The incredibly complex and detailed banknotes and such were simply a way to ensure that most people could not fake these. Simpler stuff - like mass produced identity cards - remember that in “The Great Escape” inmates with time on their hands could forge German identity cards, including the typewritten details, with home-made ink. But then, the quality was not up to the level of bank quality. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/3 "2015-03-29T15:59:44Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > A couple of different questions… > > 1. Before copy machines, I would imagine that there was an established system of making “certified” copies. Who did it…lawyers…notary publics?? A notary public would either copy the document by hand, or the client would copy it himself (or have a copy done by third parties) and bring both documents, original plus copy, to a notary public or otherwise “official” authority. There, the copy and the original would be held against each other to verify that they are, in fact, identical. Then the notary public would put a seal or stamp on the copy to certify that the copy is authentic. It wouldn’t look exactly the same as the original, and even the layout might be different because it was copied by hand, but the substantive content would be certified. > [@](#): > > 1. I often read of a 19th century check-like system where someone would give someone a “draft” that he could negotiate elsewhere. Anyone know more about how that worked…seems like it would be wide open to all kinds of fraud. Perhaps 19th century punishments effectively deterred it more than the wrist slapping that occurs today.🙂 The “draft” as you call it is more appropriately called a “bill of exchange” and was, under that name, a very common instrument both for cashless payments and extending credit, for many centuries; in fact, much of modern banking was made possible by the bill of exchange. It’s essentially a three-party relationship, similar but not quite identical to a cheque: The issuer of the document, i.e., the drafter, instructs the draftee to pay a particular sum to the bearer. Of course the draftee would not make such a payment out of thin air; he would do it on the basis of a business relationship between drafter and draftee. Maybe the drafter sold goods to the draftee so the draftee owes the drafter the price of the goods (that’s the classical scenario; bills of exchange developed in the context of long-distance trade). In that case, the draftee could set off the amount paid on the bill of exchange againt the sum owed to the drafter. Or the draftee is the drafter’s banker, in which case the bill of exchange works very much like a cheque. Or the draftee is currently not indebted to the drafter but is in an ongoing business relationship with the drafter and trusts his creditworthiness. Whatever the relatuionship between the two is, if the draftee accepts the instruction to pay, he puts his signature on the bill of exchange (called an “acceptance”) upon presentation by the bearer, which obliges him to pay. In some cases, the drafter issues a blank bill of exchange without a bearer named in it, and the draftee, on the basis of this business relationship, puts his acceptance on it. Then the drafter can use the accepted bill of exchange as a means of payment toward any third party with confidence in the draftee’s creditworthiness. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/4 "2015-03-29T16:07:44Z")
Back in the day when international trade and communication was very slow, the Bill of Lading was even more important than it is today. "_Its accuracy was paramount and, around 1350, a “statute was enacted, which provided that if the register had been in the possession of anyone but the clerk, nothing that it contained should be believed, and that if the clerk stated false matters therein he should lose his right hand, be marked on the forehead with a branding iron, and all his goods be confiscated, whether the entry was made by him or by another”_ [cite](https://www.i-law.com/ilaw/doc/view.htm?id=131038) The system was invented in the 12th century to facilitate trade between two parties that didn’t entirely trust each other. It worked rather like an escrow account and ensured that the supplier did not get paid until the goods were shipped, at which point they became the buyers property (and risk). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/5 "2015-03-29T16:31:23Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Back in the day when international trade and communication was very slow, the Bill of Lading was even more important than it is today. "_Its accuracy was paramount and, around 1350, a “statute was enacted, which provided that if the register had been in the possession of anyone but the clerk, nothing that it contained should be believed, and that if the clerk stated false matters therein he should lose his right hand, be marked on the forehead with a branding iron, and all his goods be confiscated, whether the entry was made by him or by another”_ [cite](https://www.i-law.com/ilaw/doc/view.htm?id=131038) > > The system was invented in the 12th century to facilitate trade between two parties that didn’t entirely trust each other. It worked rather like an escrow account and ensured that the supplier did not get paid until the goods were shipped, at which point they became the buyers property (and risk). I think there’s a confusion here between bills of exchange and bills of lading. The former is a means of payment; the latter is a document which represents the cargo carried by a ship, in the sense that delivery of the bill of lading had the consequence of title in the cargo passing to the deliveree. This made it possible to trade goods while the ship carrying them was still under way, but it’s very different from a bill of exchange. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/6 "2015-03-29T22:15:49Z")
Circa 1970 I heard of “Bearer Bonds” - essentially a certified check which was payable to the bearer. This was represented as a way to move money without a direct trail. Did such a thing exist at that time, and do they still exist in the US? Elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/7 "2015-03-29T22:42:34Z")
Bearer bonds are just debt securities that don’t have any particular registry; whoever holds the piece of paper can exchange it for whatever they want (like cash.) The US government issued bearer bonds up until the mid-70s. American corporations stopped issuing them in 1982 after new bearer bond offerings were banned. ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/8 "2015-03-29T23:03:24Z")
In Herman Melville’s classic short story, “Bartleby, The Scrivener”, the characters are copyists who work in a law office. Then, if the TV show portrayal I saw was accurate, they would proofread the copy by reading it aloud in a rapid, singsong fashion. If you would like to read the story, [here is a link](http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11231/pg11231.html), although I understand that you might prefer not to. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/9 "2015-03-30T00:12:16Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > A couple of different questions… > > 1. Before copy machines, I would imagine that there was an established system of making “certified” copies. Who did it…lawyers…notary publics?? > > Were complete copies required so that passages couldn’t be taken out of context? > > 1. I often read of a 19th century check-like system where someone would give someone a “draft” that he could negotiate elsewhere. Anyone know more about how that worked…seems like it would be wide open to all kinds of fraud. Perhaps 19th century punishments effectively deterred it more than the wrist slapping that occurs today.🙂 1. Certified copies still exist, and lawyers still make them. To make a certified copy, you just photocopy the original in the usual way, and then you endorse a certificate on it (usually using a rubber stamp, but you can do it by hand) to the effect that “I certified that I have compared this with the original and that it is a true copy”. Yes, a certified copy has to be a complete copy. You can’t say that document A is a true copy of document B if it only reproduces part of document B. 2. Bank drafts still exist and they are highly negotiable. A bank draft is a cheque drawn by a bank, rather than one drawn by an individual customer. Instead of writing my personal cheque for $100, I go down to my bank, put $100 on the counter (or have it debited from my personal account) and buy a draft for $100. I tell the bank what name to put in as the payee. A third party payee is glad to accept this and give immediate value for it, since he doesn’t have to worry about whether UDS has $100 in his account to meet the draft; there is no risk of dishonour. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/10 "2015-03-30T00:35:23Z")
> [@whitetho](#): > > In Herman Melville’s classic short story, “Bartleby, The Scrivener”, the characters are copyists who work in a law office. Then, if the TV show portrayal I saw was accurate, they would proofread the copy by reading it aloud in a rapid, singsong fashion. > > If you would like to read the story, [here is a link](http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11231/pg11231.html), although I understand that you might prefer not to. Hell we still used to do that in the late nineties when I was a young law clerk. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/11 "2015-03-30T02:13:29Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Hell we still used to do that in the late nineties when I was a young law clerk. Yup. And we called out the punctuation and typography as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/12 "2015-03-30T03:45:20Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yup. And we called out the punctuation and typography as well. And I knew I’d spent too much time as a proofreader the day I tried to dial the hyphen in a phone number. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/13 "2015-03-30T07:35:56Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > 1. Bank drafts still exist and they are highly negotiable. A bank draft is a cheque drawn by a bank, rather than one drawn by an individual customer. Instead of writing my personal cheque for $100, I go down to my bank, put $100 on the counter (or have it debited from my personal account) and buy a draft for $100. I tell the bank what name to put in as the payee. A third party payee is glad to accept this and give immediate value for it, since he doesn’t have to worry about whether UDS has $100 in his account to meet the draft; there is no risk of dishonour. Let me give you a tip: If you ever try to sell something on Craigslist (or similar) and you get an email that says something like “My associate will send you a bank draft for $1000 over your asking price. Please keep $200 for your trouble and wire the remaining $800 back to me,” [DON’T DO IT](http://www.scamvictimsunited.com/counterfeit_cashier%27s_check.htm)!!! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/14 "2015-03-30T10:42:48Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I think there’s a confusion here between bills of exchange and bills of lading. The former is a means of payment; the latter is a document which represents the cargo carried by a ship, in the sense that delivery of the bill of lading had the consequence of title in the cargo passing to the deliveree. This made it possible to trade goods while the ship carrying them was still under way, but it’s very different from a bill of exchange. Clearly the two go together. If you (in USA) and me (in UK) wish to trade, you, as the buyer, can deposit money somewhere that we both trust (a bank?). They will not release the cash to me until the goods are on their way - the Bill of Lading certifies that the goods are as described and are shipped. (and as you say - title passes from me to you - very important if the ship sinks or gets pirated). You of course could pass that title to a third party while the goods are still in transit - the B’lading would then be passed on with the appropriate documentation to the new owner. In this sense the B’lading represents the goods. I have no further interest. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/15 "2015-03-30T16:40:52Z")
If you remember “Catch Me If You Can”, based on a true story - the fellow discovered that the banks would also cash cheques and had a “holding period” to see if the paper came back rejected. He found that by putting incorrect routing codes on the cheques (those numbers at the bottom) the cheque would be routed across country, probably by truck, a week to go there, a week to be processed and come back void, at which point he’d be long gone. But the caching bank, based on the written address on the cheque, would assume a much shorter turn-around. (The other advantage was that he would do this all over the US, and eventually Europe, by pretending to be a pilot and “dead-heading” everywhere for free.) Probably not the OP, since I was sort of in the era of non-computer but mechanized banking procedures. (Those bizarro magnetic/OCR characters were designed to be read by mechanical devices to speed sorting and routing). Again, the key was that very few people in the days before copiers had access to serious printing equipment - so people were much more trusting of high-quality printed items since it wasn’t something your typical thief could whip up on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/16 "2015-03-30T17:30:02Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Let me give you a tip: > > If you ever try to sell something on Craigslist (or similar) and you get an email that says something like “My associate will send you a bank draft for $1000 over your asking price. Please keep $200 for your trouble and wire the remaining $800 back to me,” [DON’T DO IT](http://www.scamvictimsunited.com/counterfeit_cashier%27s_check.htm)!!! Is there _ever_ a valid reason to pay money to get money when you’re selling a good or service? Credit card fees are one thing, but there the merchant is operating under the terms of a pre-existing contract and isn’t paying the person they’re selling to or some other operation which is likely connected to the person they’re selling to. The only other example I can think of is paying a rate to get currency exchanged, which is stretching the point. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/17 "2015-03-30T18:16:46Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Clearly the two go together. If you (in USA) and me (in UK) wish to trade, you, as the buyer, can deposit money somewhere that we both trust (a bank?). They will not release the cash to me until the goods are on their way - the Bill of Lading certifies that the goods are as described and are shipped. (and as you say - title passes from me to you - very important if the ship sinks or gets pirated). > > You of course could pass that title to a third party while the goods are still in transit - the B’lading would then be passed on with the appropriate documentation to the new owner. In this sense the B’lading represents the goods. I have no further interest. This is all correct. My entire point is that bills of lading and bills of exchange are not synonymous. They are often used together, but either can (and often is) used without the other. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/18 "2015-03-30T21:58:15Z")
Bearer bonds were the supposed target of the heist in the movie _Die Hard_ (1988), so they were regarded as plausible to exist in the mid-80s. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-and-negotiable-docs-in-the-olden-days/716118/19 "2015-03-30T22:25:25Z")
In\* Following the Equator\*, I believe Mark Twain explains one way to cheat the system (bills of exchange). So it was certainly exploited by ruffians back in the day!