# Legal Aspects of Diplomatic Immunity: what about UN HQ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 28, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340 "2005-10-28T17:55:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/1 "2005-10-28T17:55:36Z")
Ok, but what about UN HQ in NYC? In the staff report, [What’s the story on diplomatic immunity?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdiploimmunity.html), guest contributor Bricker notes that diplomatic immunity isn’t all its cracked up to be: ambassadors and administrative staff can still be pursued under the laws of their home country, prosecuted where they are guests if the home country waives immunity, and are subject to unilateral expulsion; they can even receive traffic tickets. My question is: “Does the UN headquarters (located in New York City) constitute a special case?” In the 1970s at least, there were a number of complaints regarding unpaid traffic tickets. I see from this CNN link that [the controversy extended into 1997](http://www.cnn.com/US/9704/11/un.bye.bye/). Fans of Batman know that the Joker once secured immunity from (heh) Ayatollah Khomeini as a UN diplomat. Could the US expel a UN diplomat who has committed crimes on US soil? Did the NYPD ever work things out with Libyan and later Russian parking violators? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/2 "2005-10-28T18:54:32Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Could the US expel a UN diplomat who has committed crimes on US soil? Yes. [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/11130.htm](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/11130.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/3 "2005-10-28T19:00:46Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > My question is: “Does the UN headquarters (located in New York City) constitute a special case?” In the 1970s at least, there were a number of complaints regarding unpaid traffic tickets. I see from this CNN link that [the controversy extended into 1997](http://www.cnn.com/US/9704/11/un.bye.bye/). Fans of Batman know that the Joker once secured immunity from (heh) Ayatollah Khomeini as a UN diplomat. > > Could the US expel a UN diplomat who has committed crimes on US soil? Did the NYPD ever work things out with Libyan and later Russian parking violators? Here is a [Wikipedia link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:United_Nations_headquarters) about this which seems reasonable to me. My dad worked for the UN in NY from 1946 to 1975, not as a diplomat. There are diplomats assigned by countries to the UN, just as they are assigned to another country. They have diplomatic immunity. As the article mentions, UN staff members, whether US citizens like my Dad or from somewhere else, do not. Diplomats work for their host countries, while staff works for the UN (ignoring the common Russian spy of the Cold War era.) Perhaps you mean UN territory itself. That is considered foreign territory, and NY police are not allowed. The UN has its own security staff (that’s where my father started) and own postage for mail sent from the UN. They use US currency, though. I don’t recall a time when NY police were invited on the premises for an investigation, but I suppose it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/4 "2005-10-28T19:12:14Z")
Back in August 1941, the American government staged a fire in the Japanese Embassy. Firemen forced the staff to evacuate and while the real firemen were fighting the fire, three intelligence agents broke into the cryptography safe and photographed the Japanese codes. This seems a pretty flagrant violation of the immunity of what was at the time a neutral power’s embassy. Did the US ever receive any diplomatic protests or threats of reprisals for this act? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/5 "2005-10-28T19:47:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Perhaps you mean UN territory itself. That is considered foreign territory Not quite right. It has been recognized that embassies are not the territory of the sending state. This is best exemplified by the case brought by the Iran hostages. They argued that they could sue Iran in the US because the kidnapping occurred on US territory, which is a prerequisite under the relevant section of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. The Court dismissed the case because it is well-accepted under international law that embassies are part of the territory of the receiving state. _And see_, [UN Headquarters Agreement](http://www.un.int/usa/host_hqs.htm): > [@](#): > > Whereas article 104 of the Charter provides that “The Organization shall enjoy in the territory of each of its Members such legal capacity as may be necessary for the exercise of its functions and the fulfillment of its purposes” > [@](#): > > and NY police are not allowed. This is true, but for a different reason. It is part of the principle of inviolability embodies in Section 3 of the [Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations, 1 U.N.T.S. 15, 13 February 1946.](http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/p&i-convention.htm): > [@](#): > > SECTION 3. The premises of the United Nations shall be inviolable. The property and assets of the United Nations, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall be immune from h, requisition, confiscation, expropriation and any other form of interference, whether by executive, administrative, judicial or legislative action. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/6 "2005-10-28T20:09:00Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > This is true, but for a different reason. It is part of the principle of inviolability \*\*embodies \*\*in Section 3 Er, embodied, rather. BTW, I have collected a lot of resources on abuse of diplomatic immunity for my upcoming, and very related, report on the diplomatic pouch. I’ll check on answers to these other questions when I have my resources handy, assuming they have not been answered in the interim. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/7 "2005-11-01T20:44:26Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Could the US expel a UN diplomat who has committed crimes on US soil? There has been a weird case some years ago in France. A man who was being prosecuted for trafficking weapons and embezzlement (IIRC) turned up to have just been granted the status of diplomat at the UNESCO (situated in Paris) by the african country he was doing his traffick with. So, he couldn’t be prosecuted. Besides, being a diplomat at a UN body, he couldn’t be declared “persona non grata” , either, since diplomats at the UN are aknowledged by the UN, not by the host country, and anyway couldn’t be expelled from the country since he was a french citizen. So , he could safely stay home, and laugh at the prosecutors. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/8 "2005-11-01T21:10:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There has been a weird case some years ago in France. A man who was being prosecuted for trafficking weapons and embezzlement (IIRC) turned up to have just been granted the status of diplomat at the UNESCO (situated in Paris) by the african country he was doing his traffick with. So, he couldn’t be prosecuted. Besides, being a diplomat at a UN body, he couldn’t be declared “persona non grata” , either, since diplomats at the UN are aknowledged by the UN, not by the host country, and anyway couldn’t be expelled from the country since he was a french citizen. So , he could safely stay home, and laugh at the prosecutors. Quite a conundrum. You’d think the UN would bounce him. If the UN did so, he be at the mercy of the French. And in a sense, he would be worse off, because he probably would not be permitted to leave the country to escape prosecution. BTW, **Bricker** , another excellent job on a tough topic. ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/9 "2005-11-01T21:15:22Z")
Are a diplomats relatives also granted diplomatic immunity? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/10 "2005-11-01T21:20:18Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Are a diplomats relatives also granted diplomatic immunity? > [@](#): > > 1. The members of the family of a diplomatic agent forming part of his household shall, if they are not nationals of the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in Articles 29 to 36. - Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations\*, Article 37(1). [http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/diplomat.htm](http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/diplomat.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/11 "2005-11-01T21:25:03Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > - Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations\*, Article 37(1). [http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/diplomat.htm](http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/diplomat.htm) Thank you **Gfactor**. That was quick. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/12 "2005-11-01T21:37:53Z")
> [@Honey](#): > > Thank you **Gfactor**. That was quick. Any time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/13 "2005-11-02T09:34:35Z")
My fave example of the (attempted) mis-use of diplomatic immunity was when Adrienne Brown, wife of James Brown, was stopped for driving under the influence of drugs, speeding, and criminal trespass in Georgia. She asked her lawyers to file for diplomatic immunity because … wait for it … her husband is the “Ambassador of Funk”. :smack: In 1986 the city council in Augusta had held a “James Brown Appreciation Day”, during which U.S. Representative Douglas Barnard of Georgia delivered a speech in which he stated that “James is indeed our No. 1 ambassador” - so therefore Adrienne figured she was immune from prosecution. :rolleyes: Gotta love lawyers! Full story on [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/mrsbrown.asp) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/14 "2005-11-02T11:13:14Z")
> [@](#): > > For what it’s worth, when Arjen Rudd, the corrupt South African consul in Lethal Weapon 2, chuckles at Sergeant Riggs, “You couldn’t even issue me a traffic ticket,” we can see from the table that he’s wrong–even an ambassador can be issued a traffic ticket. Yes, you can issue a traffic ticket. But you can’t make the diplomat pay. If he doesn’t want to, and the ambassador or home country don’t care, he can use them to wallpaper his room with. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/15 "2005-11-02T12:32:04Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Yes, you can issue a traffic ticket. But you can’t make the diplomat pay. If he doesn’t want to, and the ambassador or home country don’t care, he can use them to wallpaper his room with. Actually, you CAN make them pay. It might result in some sticky relations with the country in question, but it’s all negotiable. And, so far as I know, usually complied with since it is a legal request, as opposed to requests for things the convention doesn’t allow. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/16 "2005-11-02T13:02:41Z")
I suspect the thing about “you can’t make them pay” is that you can’t arrest them, so the authorities are limited in what they can do to coerce payment if the [del]jerk[/del] diplomatic doesn’t want to co-operate. OTOH, as noted, most countries do not want their diplomats involved in unpleasant news stories or awkward activities. Such things get in the way of the actual duties, create a bad image of the country (thus potentially affected trade and tourism), etc. Plus, of course, if the offenses are serious enough, or cause enough public outcry, the US government can expel the diplomat or can even sever relationship with the country. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/17 "2005-11-02T14:44:45Z")
Here is what the Diplomatic Motor Vehicle Office says about the matter: > [@](#): > > Stopping a mission member or dependent and issuing a traffic citation for a moving violation does not constitute arrest or detention and is permitted. However, the subject may not be compelled to sign the citation. In all cases, officers should follow their departmental guidelines and document the facts of the case fully. A copy of the citation and any other documentation regarding the incident should be forwarded to the U.S. Department of State as soon as possible. For “must appear” offenses, the Department uses the citation and any report as the basis for requesting an “express waiver of immunity.” Individuals cited for pre-payable offenses are given the option of paying the fine or obtaining a waiver in order to contest the charge. [http://www.calea.org/newweb/newsletter/No73/what\_is\_diplomatic\_immunity.htm](http://www.calea.org/newweb/newsletter/No73/what_is_diplomatic_immunity.htm) > [@](#): > > Traffic violations are typically divided into two categories: “prepayable” and “must appear.” A prepayable violation is typically a minor infraction that does not require a court appearance and is resolvable by paying a fine. A must appear violation is a more serious offense and requires the offender to appear in court. In both cases, if a diplomat receives a traffic violation, the Diplomatic Motor Vehicle (DMV) notifies the alleged offender’s mission of the incident and advises them on the appropriate measures to resolve the offense. The U.S. Department of State maintains that it has no authority to dismiss violations or cancel any fines associated with traffic citations. [http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/45leg/1r/summary/s.1369trans.doc.htm](http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/45leg/1r/summary/s.1369trans.doc.htm) So, as others have said, the diplomat gets a ticket and the Department of State is informed. If the diplomat gets too many tickets, there can be consequences: > [@](#): > > The U.S. Department of State’s Diplomatic Motor Vehicle Office maintains driver histories on all its licensees and assesses points for moving violations. Drivers who demonstrate a pattern of bad driving habits or who commit an egregious offense such as DWI, are subject to having their licenses suspended or revoked as appropriate. This policy can be enforced effectively only if all driving infractions (DWI, DUI, reckless driving, etc.) are reported promptly to the U.S. Department of State. It is U.S. Department of State policy to assign “points” for driving infractions and to suspend the operators license of foreign mission personnel who abuse the privilege of driving in the United States by repeatedly committing traffic violations and demonstrating unsafe driving practices. \*Id. \* For those interested: Here are some pictures of diplomatic license plates and driver licenses: [http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/17835.pdf](http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/17835.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/18 "2005-11-02T19:08:25Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Not quite right. It has been recognized that embassies are not the territory of the sending state. This is best exemplified by the case brought by the Iran hostages. They argued that they could sue Iran in the US because the kidnapping occurred on US territory, which is a prerequisite under the relevant section of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. The Court dismissed the case because it is well-accepted under international law that embassies are part of the territory of the receiving state. I was making a distinction between the UN territory itself and the embassies of UN members in New York. It seems odd to consider the UN as an embassy - there is no home state, for instance. I’m not sure, but I suspect embassies use the postage of the host country, while inside the UN UN postage is used, for instance. Thanks for the link about the police. My father knew the people in charge of UN security quite well, and I think I would have heard of any incursions, but I just assumed there was a rule. The instance I remember where there might have been NY police action was when someone shot a mortar or something at the Secretariat building in the '60s. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/19 "2005-11-02T19:52:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I was making a distinction between the UN territory itself and the embassies of UN members in New York. It seems odd to consider the UN as an embassy - there is no home state, for instance. Of course you are correct. UN headquarters is not an embassy in the strict legal sense. But as you can see from the Headquarters agreement, its treatment is similar to that of embassies. Moreover: > [@](#): > > ARTICLE III - LAW AND AUTHORITY IN TEE HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT > > SECTION 7 > > (a) The headquarters district shall be under the control and authority of the United Nations as provided in this agreement. > > (b) Except as otherwise provided in this agreement or in the General Convention, the federal, state and local law of the United States shall apply within the headquarters district. > > (c) Except as otherwise provided in this agreement or in the General Convention, the federal. state and local courts of the United States shall have Jurisdiction over acts done and transactions taking place in the headquarters district as provided in applicable federal, state and local laws. > > (d) The federal, state and local courts of the United States, when dealing with cases arising out of or relating to acts done or transactions taking place in the headquarters district, shall take into account the regulations enacted by the United Nations under Section 8. > > SECTION 8 > > The United Nations shall have the power to make regulations, operative within the headquarters district, for the purpose of establishing therein conditions in all respects necessary for the full execution of its functions. No federal, state or local law or regulation of the United States which is inconsistent with a regulation of the United Nations authorized by this section shall, to the extent of such inconsistency, be applicable within the headquarters district. Any dispute, between the United Nations and the United States, as to whether a regulation of the United Nations is authorized by this section or as to whether a federal, state or local law or regulation is inconsistent with any regulation of the United Nations authorized by this section, shall be promptly settled as provided in Section 21. Pending such settlement, the regulation of the United Nations shall apply, and the federal, state or local law or regulation shall be inapplicable in the headquarters district to the extent that the United Nations claims it to be inconsistent with the regulation of the United Nations. This section shall not prevent the reasonable application of fire protection regulations of the appropriate American authorities. _Headquarters Agreement_ > [@](#): > > I’m not sure, but I suspect embassies use the postage of the host country, while inside the UN UN postage is used, for instance. I don’t know about the postage issue. But [here](http://www.un.org/Depts/UNPA/about.htm) is a discussion of the United Nations Postal Administration. And note that the UN’s development of its own postal service was contemplated in the headquarters agreement: > [@](#): > > SECTION 6 > > In the event that the United Nations should propose to organize its own postal service, the conditions under which such service shall be set up shall be the subject of a supplemental agreement. So the UN has established its own postage with the consent and assistance of the host countries. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340/20 "2005-11-03T10:42:01Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Actually, you CAN make them pay. It might result in some sticky relations with the country in question, but it’s all negotiable. And, so far as I know, usually complied with since it is a legal request, as opposed to requests for things the convention doesn’t allow. How can you make them pay if you can’t take them to court without the home country waiving immunity? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-aspects-of-diplomatic-immunity-what-about-un-hq/328340.md?page=2)