# Legal defense fund for a U.S. Soldier -- A plea for help, a plea for money **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 29, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703 "2012-06-29T16:00:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/81 "2012-07-06T15:52:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m sorry if you are unaware of how the real world works. Or unaware of the politics involved in the current conflict in Afghanistan. It doesn’t even require reading between lines. If you want to claim a political agenda to the case you need something more than a single line quote of the president of Afgahnistan calling for an investigation. Any political leader would call for the investigation of an unarmed civilian being killed by a foreign military, I’m sure many dozens of such cases have gone un-prosecuted, if this one is going forward then maybe its because there is a real case? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/82 "2012-07-06T16:38:07Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > If you want to claim a political agenda to the case you need something more than a single line quote of the president of Afgahnistan calling for an investigation. > > Any political leader would call for the investigation of an unarmed civilian being killed by a foreign military, I’m sure many dozens of such cases have gone un-prosecuted, if this one is going forward then maybe its because there is a real case? See two can play at that game. If you are sure that dozens of cases have gone un-prosecuted you need more than your assertion. Unknown if it is going forward. Thats what an Article 32 hearing is for. Karzai has a policial agenda. Its widely reported. He is not interested in this case because of his keen interest in law enforcement. You can quibble if you want. It is obvious what kind of pressures are being placed on the case. What effect it will have remains to be seen. Its not that I don’t understand what kind of political pressure Karzai himself is under. He is walking a tightrope. He must be seen to be tough with the US. He also needs to play nice with the US because they are pretty much all thats keeping him in power. And I’m sure he understands that his enemies are hiding amongst the populace which is going to lead to civilian casualties.For him its an easy call to put pressure on the US in this case. Do you really think that he will be satisfied if the Article 32 hearing comes back recommending no court martial? ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Seabee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@Old\_Seabee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Old_Seabee)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/83 "2012-07-06T23:01:11Z")
more conventional war you have to make decisions that literally impact whether you are going to live or die and you have to make those decisions in seconds. If someone does something grossly negligent and against norms of military doctrine, you charge them. I don’t believe in punishing someone for making the wrong decision in combat. This guy had literally just moments before been engaged in an all out fight to the death. I don’t see how we as a society put people in that situation and then expect them to be punished if a decision they make in the heat of the moment turns out to be the wrong decision. War kills civilians and that’s a big part of why war is abominable, but not all those civilian deaths are the result of malice or even criminal, and this one shouldn’t be from everything I’ve read. Being as how I have spent a year in war and have picked up blood and body parts in a five gallon bucket and scrape flesh from the walls of blown up hootchs . And had my friends shredded to pieces . I say kill em all and let god sort it out!!! I have nothing more to say about this subject ! ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/84 "2012-07-07T00:37:54Z")
Wasn’t there an exact same thread started by a different username a few days ago? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/85 "2012-07-07T01:05:58Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I won’t try to sway anyone. I see it as someone who chose wrong in a split second decision. Due to my background I count myself lucky I have never had to live with such a decision. I can put myself in his shoes. I also don’t think he would be prosecuted if it wasn’t for politics. Well, given what this looks like, thank God for politics. I am not assuming he is guilty, but it sure seems obvious that there’s a decent case to be made. Can’t understand why this guy deserves my charity anymore than the hundreds of other people who wrongly killed someone. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/86 "2012-07-07T01:28:15Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Wasn’t there an exact same thread started by a different username a few days ago? On this board, no. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/87 "2012-07-07T01:56:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > See two can play at that game. If you are sure that dozens of cases have gone un-prosecuted you need more than your assertion. Here you go: > **[Afghanistan war logs: Massive leak of secret files exposes truth of occupation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks)** > > • Hundreds of civilians killed by coalition troops• Covert unit hunts leaders for ‘kill or capture’• Steep rise in Taliban bomb attacks on Nato “coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents”. > **[Wikileaks Afghanistan: suggestions US tried to cover up civilian casualties](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7913088/Wikileaks-Afghanistan-suggestions-US-tried-to-cover-up-civilian-casualties.html)** > > Fresh evidence suggesting that US-led forces attempted to cover up civilian casualties in Afghanistan has emerged through leaked military documents. There quite a lot more to be easily found while I still have yet to find any evidence of political interference in SFC taylors case, a call for an investigation without any mention of guilt is entirely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/88 "2012-07-07T14:49:48Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > He is not accused of killing her out of malice. He is accused of killing her out of negligence, which is also criminal. I never said otherwise. I said “not all civilian deaths are the result of malice or are even criminal.” I would argue this case was a result of a bad decision, perhaps a _type_ of negligence, but not in my opinion what is or should be treated as **criminal negligence** (there’s a difference between negligence and criminal negligence. I’m being negligent if I get a soda out of a friend’s fridge and leave it open, resulting in all his food spoiling, but that isn’t a criminal act.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/89 "2012-07-07T17:41:06Z")
Personally, I have a hard time simply calling it “negligence” when killing someone because that someone was running away from you with an unopened trunk along their flight path. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/90 "2012-07-07T22:59:14Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I am convinced that there is a strong, legitimate case against him. Okay, fair enough. It’s hard to find out what really happened, especially since the media writes according to an agenda which we don’t always know. From what I have read, I decided to support his defense fund. Are the following in dispute? \*\*\*Second 1: A figure dressed in dark, bulky clothing emerges. Second 2: The figure begins walking toward the trunk. Second 3: Taylor, with five wounded comrades behind him, sees a thin trigger wire seeming to snake directly toward the black car. Could there be a second bomb in the trunk? Second 4: Taylor squeezes the trigger on his M-4 carbine. The figure crumples to the dirt.\*\*\* [Cite 1](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/10/nation/la-na-afghan-shooting-20120610), [cite 2](http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2148/Help-SFC-Walter-Taylor.aspx). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/91 "2012-07-08T00:14:54Z")
What do you imagine the good Doctor was going to retrieve from the trunk? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/92 "2012-07-08T02:06:56Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > Okay, fair enough. It’s hard to find out what really happened, especially since the media writes according to an agenda which we don’t always know. From what I have read, I decided to support his defense fund. > > Are the following in dispute? > > \*\*\*Second 1: A figure dressed in dark, bulky clothing emerges. > > Second 2: The figure begins walking toward the trunk. > > Second 3: Taylor, with five wounded comrades behind him, sees a thin trigger wire seeming to snake directly toward the black car. Could there be a second bomb in the trunk? > > Second 4: Taylor squeezes the trigger on his M-4 carbine. The figure crumples to the dirt.\*\*\* > > [Cite 1](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/10/nation/la-na-afghan-shooting-20120610), [cite 2](http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2148/Help-SFC-Walter-Taylor.aspx). They are not in dispute. But “second 3” is not relevant. The wire is completely unrelated to the car. The car was stopped there because that is where they shot it up and forced it to stop. If there _was_ a bomb in the trunk, the wire would not be used to detonate it. If the car was a VBIED, then it would have to be initiated from inside the car, not outside. So exiting the vehicle was not a VBIED indicator. And if it had been, the driver should have been shot, not the exiting passenger. SFC Taylor doesn’t say he was scared of the wire or a bomb. He claims he feared she was going to get a weapon out of the trunk. All of the talk about wires and bombs is coming from a lawyer ignorant of IEDs and combat. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/93 "2012-07-08T05:29:02Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > They are not in dispute. But “second 3” is not relevant. The wire is completely unrelated to the car. In a few brief seconds, as a firefight has been going on, in the urgent heat of battle, as adrenalin is coursing furiously through his blood vessels, we are to expect Taylor to not have fired at this (now we know to be an) innocent civilian, who tragically was at the wrong place at the wrong time? We’re going to nail him for this split-second decision made in the fog of war? I’ve done several web searches on this issue and found only info supporting Taylor. Can anyone point to web pages other than these that claim Taylor is guilty? I’d like to read that info. Again, I don’t think we need to argue the facts of this case here, but I do believe this guy deserves our support, people. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/94 "2012-07-08T06:12:52Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > In a few brief seconds, as a firefight has been going on, in the urgent heat of battle, as adrenalin is coursing furiously through his blood vessels, we are to expect Taylor to not have fired at this (now we know to be an) innocent civilian, who tragically was at the wrong place at the wrong time? We’re going to nail him for this split-second decision made in the fog of war? That is not what happened. Dr Hikmat was shot nine minutes after the car in which her family was killed was fired upon. Thats not the heat of battle, nine minutes is a long time. The wounded from the bombing had already been evacuated. I’m guessing that the fact they were following the wire meant they were NOT still recieving small arms fire, I can’t imagine you would ever do that under fire. So the firefight was long over and SFC Taylor shot an unarmed civilian. Where was the imminent threat? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/95 "2012-07-08T06:26:28Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > That is not what happened. Dr Hikmat was shot nine minutes after the car in which her family was killed was fired upon. Thats not the heat of battle, nine minutes is a long time. The wounded from the bombing had already been evacuated. > > I’m guessing that the fact they were following the wire meant they were NOT still recieving small arms fire, I can’t imagine you would ever do that under fire. So the firefight was long over and SFC Taylor shot an unarmed civilian. Where was the imminent threat? Nine minutes? Thanks, but, cite? NM, found it [here](http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/10/nation/la-na-afghan-shooting-20120610/3) (emphasis mine): “The crux of the case will be what judgment Taylor used during those few seconds as Hikmat got out of the car, **perhaps nine minutes after the initial firing stopped**. Army investigators believe he did not meet the primary criteria under the Army’s rules of engagement — making a positive identification of his target as a combatant and, beyond that, confirming that the unknown figure had hostile intent.” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/96 "2012-07-08T12:15:36Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > I’ve done several web searches on this issue and found only info supporting Taylor. Hearty congratulations on your several web searches, but the thing is **Bear** is an actual soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/97 "2012-07-08T12:39:33Z")
I am aware of that, thank you. I am a Marine, retired in 1993 after the first Gulf War. And, I posted that statement specifically to ask if there were any articles/pages _ **not** _ supporting Taylor. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/98 "2012-07-08T13:21:35Z")
Do you think the internet is some sort of jury? That because lots of people have rallied around a wounded soldier who needs money, it’s some sort of proof of innocence? That it counters **Bear\_Nenno** ’s argument in some way? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/99 "2012-07-08T22:52:09Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > I am aware of that, thank you. I am a Marine, retired in 1993 after the first Gulf War. > > And, I posted that statement specifically to ask if there were any articles/pages _ **not** _ supporting Taylor. I doubt that you will find any. And that proves…well, absolutely nothing. mmm ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703/100 "2012-07-08T23:34:08Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Ten days after the incident SFC Taylor was hit by a RPG. His injuries included losing his nose and sight in one eye. He has been through multiple operations and has many more to go. If convicted he may lose his VA benefits and access to care for the wounds he received. Do you believe that this is relevant to questions of guilt or innocence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-defense-fund-for-a-u-s-soldier-a-plea-for-help-a-plea-for-money/626703.md?page=6)