# Legal help: Criminally negligent for bouncers to use mace indoors in a crowded place?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-help-criminally-negligent-for-bouncers-to-use-mace-indoors-in-a-crowded-place/155671>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [February 17, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-help-criminally-negligent-for-bouncers-to-use-mace-indoors-in-a-crowded-place/155671 "2003-02-17T18:12:16Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 3\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-help-criminally-negligent-for-bouncers-to-use-mace-indoors-in-a-crowded-place/155671/21 "2003-02-18T06:11:47Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by antechinus \*
> 
> \*_Under common law_, occupiers owe a duty of care to people who come onto their premises. An acceptable standard of care must be provided to protect people against unreasonable harm.
> 
> When testing for negligence courts look to see if a reasonable person would have foreseen the risk of harm. That defendant also has to be in a position to do something about preventing that harm from occurring.\*\*

:dubious:

The question concerns criminal negligence, not Torts 101. The answer lies with the relevant US statutes, not the common law. As a _generalisation_, the standard of neglect required for criminal negligence is much stricter than civil negligence. Depending on the revelant laws, “reasonableness” as you have indicated may in fact be incorrect.

> [@](#):
>
> **]From what I have heard, the terroist threat has really been played up in the media in the US lately. Maybe the media can be found vicariously negligent for putting people in fear.**

:dubious:

Can you provide an example where a media outlet has been held to owe a duty of care to its readers or viewers? Can you give an illustration how they could be found to “stand in the shoes” of a potentially negligent _nightclub_ with whom they have _no relationship_?

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**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-help-criminally-negligent-for-bouncers-to-use-mace-indoors-in-a-crowded-place/155671/22 "2003-02-18T07:29:08Z")

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For what it’s worth, on the ride home this evening the news on the radio (AM 890) had the Chicago Police Department saying that while the use of pepper spray in the building may have been in poor judgement, it was not in of itself illegal.

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**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-help-criminally-negligent-for-bouncers-to-use-mace-indoors-in-a-crowded-place/155671/23 "2003-02-18T08:56:53Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Narrad \*  
> \*\*:dubious:
> 
> The question concerns criminal negligence, not Torts 101. The answer lies with the relevant US statutes, not the common law. As a _generalisation_, the standard of neglect required for criminal negligence is much stricter than civil negligence. Depending on the revelant laws, “reasonableness” as you have indicated may in fact be incorrect.
> 
> :dubious:
> 
> Can you provide an example where a media outlet has been held to owe a duty of care to its readers or viewers? Can you give an illustration how they could be found to “stand in the shoes” of a potentially negligent _nightclub_ with whom they have _no relationship_? \*\*

1. Yes I was discussing common law. US statute may allow for criminal negligence in this case, but civil negligence should at least apply.

2. That was a joke - well the second sentence was. Should have put in a smiley.

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