# Legal in All Circumstances (or, I Wish a Muthasucka would!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622 "2009-09-26T04:20:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/61 "2009-09-30T04:03:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > My money is on a half-chewed gummy bear. I guess we will never know. I remember when we had “Bodies…the Exhibit” at the Science Center, they had several stages of embryos and fetuses from early miscarriages. Not ONE looked like those shown from anti-abortion websites. Even if they WERE from abortions, they were far, FAR smaller and not nearly as developed as those featured there. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/62 "2009-09-30T04:12:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Truth? What does that picture have to do with truth? The fact is, we don"t know what it is showing. There is no descriptive caption, no citation of sources, no references at all; are we suppose to assume it has not been photo-shopped or manufactured? You haven’t even made any claims for the photo, you just throw it out there, and hope everybody jumps to a conclusion. Devoid of context, that picture is meaningless. So there is just as much proof that picture is a gummy bear as there is for what ever you are claiming it is. So, your answer in “LALALALALALA abortion never produces images like this”? I’ll be good and get some pictures. Are you simply contesting my citing abilities or the scientific fact that my picture showed something very similar (even if it’s a gummy bear) to the results of an abortion? Do you need the name of the doctor? [Here’s one from wiki](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Human_fetus_10_weeks_with_amniotic_sac_-_therapeutic_abortion.jpg) [Some random blog](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Kiu8vWdqdko/SVnwDcm6t_I/AAAAAAAAAKg/EB7_OQXQqP4/s400/abortion06.jpg) [Catholic site](http://www.chaldean.org/Portals/0/SupremeCourtAbortionRuling.jpg) [Pro-choice site](http://womenabortion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/abortion-news-2-1024x985.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/63 "2009-09-30T12:29:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Are you simply contesting my citing abilities or the scientific fact that my picture showed something very similar (even if it’s a gummy bear) to the results of an abortion? I am contesting the purpose of posting those pictures in the first place. Apparently you think they have some kind of shock value, as if simply viewing them negates the pro-choice position, and you don’t have to go to the trouble of actually making a rational argument. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/64 "2009-09-30T12:37:01Z")
Some more pictures with not citations or references (nice captions, though!). Maybe abortion produces pictures like that. Maybe photoshop does. Maybe you’re missing the point that some of us just don’t care. Personally, I couldn’t give a shit how cutesy-wootsy you think a fetus is. If it’s inside my body, and I don’t want it there, it’s gettin’ the boot. If someday we can figure out a way to transfer it to YOUR body, you’re welcome to it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/65 "2009-09-30T13:07:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > FYI, I git the same bullshit from docs as an unmarried childless man looking for a vasectomy in my 20s. I had to wait almost 10 years because I wasn’t pushy enough. Well, considering that the procedure is elective, statistics show that men who have vasectomies when they are less than 35 years old have a high rate of regret, and folks that regret having an elective procedure sue at a significantly higher rate than folks who didn’t have an elective procedure done, I’m not gonna blame any doctor for declining to perform a vasectomy on someone under 35 who hasn’t either had a few kids or stored a few ounces of semen in a sperm bank. QtM, who performed a few vasectomies back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/66 "2009-09-30T13:33:05Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Well, considering that the procedure is elective, statistics show that men who have vasectomies when they are less than 35 years old have a high rate of regret, and folks that regret having an elective procedure sue at a significantly higher rate than folks who didn’t have an elective procedure done, I’m not gonna blame any doctor for declining to perform a vasectomy on someone under 35 who hasn’t either had a few kids or stored a few ounces of semen in a sperm bank. > > QtM, who performed a few vasectomies back in the day. I hate that. “I regret that I did this elective surgery, so I’m going to sue the doctor who did it”? How about just say, “Man, I wish that _I_ had chosen differently.”? Especially when you know he had to go through conversations about the risks, the consequences, if he was really sure. You get snipped (or have a tubal, or have a boob job, or whatever that’s not technically medically necessary) and regret it later? Blame yourself, not the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/67 "2009-09-30T13:35:05Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Well, considering that the procedure is elective, statistics show that men who have vasectomies when they are less than 35 years old have a high rate of regret, and folks that regret having an elective procedure sue at a significantly higher rate than folks who didn’t have an elective procedure done, I’m not gonna blame any doctor for declining to perform a vasectomy on someone under 35 who hasn’t either had a few kids or stored a few ounces of semen in a sperm bank. > > QtM, who performed a few vasectomies back in the day. I know people can sue for anything, but…is there any case at all for someone suing because a doctor gave a vasectomy to someone that _asked_ for one? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/68 "2009-09-30T13:51:01Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I know people can sue for anything, but…is there any case at all for someone suing because a doctor gave a vasectomy to someone that _asked_ for one? I can’t cite cases at the moment, but I recall having cases of it cited, including one which was successful because the jury felt the doctor had not been sufficiently forceful in warning the man that he might regret it. So yes, docs have been sued for it, and even if most of them are not successful, the necessary time and effort to defend the case takes a lot of emotional and time resources. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/69 "2009-09-30T14:14:33Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I can’t cite cases at the moment, but I recall having cases of it cited, including one which was successful because the jury felt the doctor had not been sufficiently forceful in warning the man that he might regret it. > > So yes, docs have been sued for it, and even if most of them are not successful, the necessary time and effort to defend the case takes a lot of emotional and time resources. Of course. No one wants to fight nonsense in court. And I wasn’t asking you to cite actual cases. I was asking if anyone that pulls that crap would actually have a case. But I can see how they could pretend that they weren’t properly informed about what they were getting into. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/70 "2009-09-30T14:29:51Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I know people can sue for anything, but…is there any case at all for someone suing because a doctor gave a vasectomy to someone that _asked_ for one? It doesn’t matter if you have a case or not. Any lawsuit is bad news for a physician (or anyone, really), even if you’re 99% sure of winning. Your malpractice insurance rates go up, you have to take time out of your day to be deposed, etc. At the least, it’s a pain in the ass. At worst, it can cost your your livelihood. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/71 "2009-09-30T14:56:04Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, your answer in “LALALALALALA abortion never produces images like this”? > I’ll be good and get some pictures. > Are you simply contesting my citing abilities or the scientific fact that my picture showed something very similar (even if it’s a gummy bear) to the results of an abortion? Do you need the name of the doctor? > > [Here’s one from wiki](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Human_fetus_10_weeks_with_amniotic_sac_-_therapeutic_abortion.jpg) > [Some random blog](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Kiu8vWdqdko/SVnwDcm6t_I/AAAAAAAAAKg/EB7_OQXQqP4/s400/abortion06.jpg) > [Catholic site](http://www.chaldean.org/Portals/0/SupremeCourtAbortionRuling.jpg) > [Pro-choice site](http://womenabortion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/abortion-news-2-1024x985.jpg) How does “it looks really icky” constitute an argument? Surgically removed tumors look icky as well. Should we make _that_ procedure illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/72 "2009-09-30T15:25:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It doesn’t matter if you have a case or not. Any lawsuit is bad news for a physician (or anyone, really), even if you’re 99% sure of winning. Your malpractice insurance rates go up, you have to take time out of your day to be deposed, etc. At the least, it’s a pain in the ass. At worst, it can cost your your livelihood. This is an honest question: did you read the two posts above you? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/73 "2009-09-30T16:12:08Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > But I can see how they could pretend that they weren’t properly informed about what they were getting into. All they have to do is convince a jury that, while they signed the consent, it wasn’t really made all that clear to them what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/74 "2009-09-30T17:21:29Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, your answer in “LALALALALALA abortion never produces images like this”? > I’ll be good and get some pictures. > Are you simply contesting my citing abilities or the scientific fact that my picture showed something very similar (even if it’s a gummy bear) to the results of an abortion? Do you need the name of the doctor? > > [Here’s one from wiki](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Human_fetus_10_weeks_with_amniotic_sac_-_therapeutic_abortion.jpg) > [Some random blog](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Kiu8vWdqdko/SVnwDcm6t_I/AAAAAAAAAKg/EB7_OQXQqP4/s400/abortion06.jpg) > [Catholic site](http://www.chaldean.org/Portals/0/SupremeCourtAbortionRuling.jpg) > [Pro-choice site](http://womenabortion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/abortion-news-2-1024x985.jpg) I won’t contest your photos. Abortion can be - probably often is - very gruesome, even horrific. I don’t think pro-choicers should gloss over that. But, to paraphrase **LeeshaJoy** , so what? The same is true of surgical procedures, slaughterhouses, slums, and battlefields. The difference is that people who want to eliminate those things don’t try to pass laws against surgery, meat-eating, being poor or going to war. They work to eliminate the need for those things. Just like people who support the right to abortion usually also support greater access to birth control and sexual education to reduce unplanned pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/75 "2009-09-30T17:58:21Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > How does “it looks really icky” constitute an argument? Surgically removed tumors look icky as well. Should we make _that_ procedure illegal? > [@The\_Weird\_One](#): > > I won’t contest your photos. Abortion can be - probably often is - very gruesome, even horrific. I don’t think pro-choicers should gloss over that. But, to paraphrase **LeeshaJoy** , so what? The same is true of surgical procedures, slaughterhouses, slums, and battlefields. The difference is that people who want to eliminate those things don’t try to pass laws against surgery, meat-eating, being poor or going to war. They work to eliminate the need for those things. Just like people who support the right to abortion usually also support greater access to birth control and sexual education to reduce unplanned pregnancies. My original argument was a response to “it isn’t a body” regarding abortion. 1. I showed a picture showing it was. 2. Someone tried to funny saying “it’s a gummy bear” and “you didn’t cite correctly” 3. So, I post a couple more only to point out there is a body (personhood and/or rights are not part of my argument now). Yeah, ickyness is not an argument, but it is true, it’s science. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/76 "2009-09-30T18:15:36Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > This is an honest question: did you read the two posts above you? This is an honest answer: not yours. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/77 "2009-09-30T18:19:21Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > This probably goes without saying, but if a homeless guy takes up residence in my womb, I am pretty sure I get to stab him. The bastard climbed into your womb? I can’t believe the shit those guys try to pull these days. But don’t be too hasty stabbing the intruder. Give him a year or so and see if he leaves on his own. And if he climbs out of the womb and takes up residence in your house, then you should most certainly stab him. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/78 "2009-09-30T19:22:51Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > All they have to do is convince a jury that, while they signed the consent, it wasn’t really made all that clear to them what it meant. In cases like this, I wonder if a psych consult and evaluation would be of any use, to prove that the patient knew that the procedure was pretty much irreversible, and that the patient was sure that s/he’d never want kids. I know that my life would have been much happier and more productive if I’d been able to get my tubes tied when I was 18. Or hell, even when I was 16, though I wasn’t sexually active then, I’d already known that I didn’t want any kids, ever. I think, too, that if a man wants a snip, and can prove that he’s got a few samples frozen, that he should be able to get a vasectomy, no matter what his age. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/79 "2009-09-30T19:29:00Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > … All of that, and you think that somehow _you_ have it _all_ figured out about exactly what ‘life’ really is, what a ‘person’ really is and the magic moment in your gullible ass pixie-dustfilled mind that 'life begins!" > > Please. You have no fucking clue. Agreed. Note that we can try to describe a fetus as a part of the woman’s body, or we can try to describe it as homeless invader. Both of these arguements come up every time abortion is discussed here, often by the same poster, and they contradict each other. If it is a bundle of tissues that are a part of a woman’s body, then most of us can agree it is the woman’s choice. If it is a person, most of us can agree that it has rights just like any other person. We can’t just kill it out of convenience. But we will never reach a consensus on whether it is a tissue or a person. It develops from egg to zygote to embryo to fetus to baby to child to adult. To say that we “have no fucking clue” where to draw the line is not a valid pro-choice arguement any more than it is a valid pro-life arguement. The scientists may come to one conclusion, the Buy-bull thumpers will come to another, and the people who really really really don’t want a kid right now will come to another. So maybe we do have a clue, but our most reasoned, passionate arguements won’t mean shit to the other camp. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622/80 "2009-10-01T02:02:36Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > But we will never reach a consensus on whether it is a tissue or a person. It develops from egg to zygote to embryo to fetus to baby to child to adult. To say that we “have no fucking clue” where to draw the line is not a valid pro-choice arguement any more than it is a valid pro-life arguement. The scientists may come to one conclusion, the Buy-bull thumpers will come to another, and the people who really really really don’t want a kid right now will come to another. So maybe we do have a clue, but our most reasoned, passionate arguements won’t mean shit to the other camp. What’s wrong with “life begins when the pregnant woman in question says it does”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-in-all-circumstances-or-i-wish-a-muthasucka-would/511622.md?page=5)