# Legal name fraud - the TRUTH! (WTF?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886 "2016-05-28T13:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/41 "2016-05-30T05:14:20Z")
Your whole thesis is that John Q. Sovereign is a loner who solitarily looks out after himself. Much more likely, he surrounds himself with a clique of like-minded buddies who all look out for one another. This is what all those “Patriot” militias seem to think they are doing. That’s what Cliven Bundy did, with all those flag-waving cowboys that faced down all the BLM guys for a year and a half. If we make it a policy that people may opt out of the laws and become “outlaws”, there will be anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/42 "2016-05-30T05:30:53Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Your whole thesis is that John Q. Sovereign is a loner who solitarily looks out after himself. > > Much more likely, he surrounds himself with a clique of like-minded buddies who all look out for one another. This is what all those “Patriot” militias seem to think they are doing. That’s what Cliven Bundy did, with all those flag-waving cowboys that faced down all the BLM guys for a year and a half. > > If we make it a policy that people may opt out of the laws and become “outlaws”, there will be anarchy. I don’t think such a community is going to hold together for very long. The people we’re talking about here aren’t responding to legitimate concerns; their paranoia is delusional. So when you throw a whole bunch of these delusional paranoids together, what do you think is going to happen? Realistically, they’ll be killing each other within a matter of days. And if I’m wrong and these guys are able to form a functioning society in isolation? Well, then, good for them. I have no problem with these guys other than their interactions with the rest of society. If they isolate themselves away from us that solves the problem as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/43 "2016-06-01T02:11:06Z")
How can publicizing the loophole (they think its a loop hole… ) be helpful to them ? surely they can work out that if too many people use the loophole then the loophole would have to be closed ? What happens second ? The simple debunking is … " what good is this theory until you demonstrate it in practice anyway… show us the case where it worked at he court ?? " How can it defy this ? It seems to be saying that if enough people believe it then magically it becomes true - and a loophole that can’t be closed. That is the same magic that makes the loophole appear will also prevent the loophole being closed ? So basically its requiring magic forces to make the loophole come about… ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/44 "2016-06-01T02:33:07Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They consider all interactions with government(including obeying statutes) to be an offer to do business. (That’s why they cite the UCC, it’s contract law.) Rejecting that offer is how they claim, for example, they can drive without a license. > Accepting the offer binds them to follow that law(creating joinder). Here’s some amusing videos of Sovereign Citizens during traffic stops. The phrase Article Four Free Inhabitant is used ad nauseum throughout this one [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mMCO79R-4mM/hqdefault.jpg "Insane Sovereign Citizen "Article 4 Free Inhabitant" Loses It When Arrested") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMCO79R-4mM) And in this one the officer gets “educated” about the differences between driving and traveling. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vmIE5l9daP4/hqdefault.jpg "Sovereign Citizen "Traveler" Hands Over His Driver's License at Traffic Stop") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmIE5l9daP4) ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/45 "2016-06-01T02:35:31Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > How can publicizing the loophole (they think its a loop hole… ) be helpful to them ? surely they can work out that if too many people use the loophole then the loophole would have to be closed ? The loophole is based on the Common Law and the UCC. Those are higher laws from which we all derive our rights as Freemen on the Land. They can’t take those away from us. > [@](#): > > What happens second ? > > The simple debunking is … " what good is this theory until you demonstrate it in practice anyway… show us the case where it worked at he court ?? " The oppressive authorities would never dare let a case come to trial that would expose them for the frauds they are. And what about all those cases where the Freemen lost? Well, those are the ones who were unprepared and didn’t argue their rights correctly or use the correct magic words. And for only $59.99 I can send you a kit that explains exactly the right way to fight the jack-booted thugs who want to keep us enslaved. Once they know you are armed with this information, they will back down. And, as a matter of fact, there are cases that have ended up with hung juries or even acquittals by juries. They will proudly cite those (ignoring the fact that, in the case of the hung juries, the defendant was convicted on retrial). Really, this is the type of logic you are up against. You can’t talk them out of it. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/46 "2016-06-01T04:24:10Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Your whole thesis is that John Q. Sovereign is a loner who solitarily looks out after himself. > > Much more likely, he surrounds himself with a clique of like-minded buddies who all look out for one another. This is what all those “Patriot” militias seem to think they are doing. That’s what Cliven Bundy did, with all those flag-waving cowboys that faced down all the BLM guys for a year and a half. > > If we make it a policy that people may opt out of the laws and become “outlaws”, there will be anarchy. Not for long, if the policy included treating such “outlaws” as they were treated historically. The reason why being declared an outlaw was such an extreme punishment in pre-modern societies was because it was considered not only lawful but meritorious to kill an outlaw (like killing a rabid wolf). A group of outlaws would not last much longer than a single outlaw if the surrounding society were inclined to eradicate them. The only reason that the current sovereign citizen’s movement survives is because of society’s forbearance. Historically, though, this nation has shown little patience with those who reject the authority of the federal government, as demonstrated in the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/47 "2016-06-01T05:30:53Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I think the unifying aspect is common law. Well you suggest common law and \*\*John DiFool \*\*suggests insanity, and I think he is closer to the mark. When what you are saying has no foundation, the particular foundation it doesn’t have doesn’t much matter. If they were transported overnight to an alien civilisation with a legal system with historical roots that had no relationship whatever to ours they would argue just the same. As others have said in this thread and I have argued in other threads, where these guys fall down is (amongst other things) a total lack of consideration of the role of power. Let’s assume every single thing they say is correct. It just doesn’t matter. If every single member of the entire government is completely wrong and these guys are right, it matters not a whit. When taken in totality (including the judiciary and its enforcement arms) what the government believes the law to be is what will get enforced, even if they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/48 "2016-06-01T23:52:20Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And in this one the officer gets “educated” about the differences between driving and traveling. > > [https://youtu.be/vmIE5l9daP4](https://youtu.be/vmIE5l9daP4) Is this guy retarded? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/49 "2016-06-02T00:10:04Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Is this guy retarded? No, he’s a Soverei… Same thing. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/50 "2016-06-02T00:27:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No, he’s a Soverei… > Same thing. Hey, now! Don’t insult the developmentally disabled… ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/51 "2016-06-02T01:17:32Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Is this guy retarded? no, he’s just dumb enough to believe things he reads on the internet. oh wait, is that different? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/52 "2016-06-02T01:31:15Z")
Let these fools go to Mogadishu. Don’t want to pay any taxes to support the infrastructure? Then forget driving to the store to get supplies or any power or fuel that is supported by taxes for the common good. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/53 "2016-06-02T01:33:34Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Let these fools go to Mogadishu. > > Don’t want to pay any taxes to support the infrastructure? Then forget driving to the store to get supplies or any power or fuel that is supported by taxes for the common good. He’s not engaged in commerce so he’s not _driving_. He’s _traveling._ ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/54 "2016-06-02T01:37:46Z")
I would love it if a cop responded to one of these sovcits “You are using a public road. Sorry but you created joinder.” :SAINT of the family CAD: acting for the natural man Saint Cad. I do not bind myself to contracts. All use of my words require payment of $1,000,000 enforceable in Admiralty Court under UCC 1-103. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/55 "2016-06-02T01:47:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He’s not engaged in commerce so he’s not _driving_. He’s _traveling._ Is that from their pocket constitution? Bunch of lazy assholes with guns. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/56 "2016-06-02T13:48:20Z")
As I do not acknowledge the treaty jurisdiction of this Admiralty Court in rem due to no UCC Contract having been duly signed under prima facie rights, I thereby accept for value the Sum of One Million Dollars ($1,000,000) in Lawful Gold or Silver Coin Only. robert,COLUMBIA, a foreign banking association with appearance in the Sheriff’s Court of the Domain of British West Florida, not required to register under Magna Carta rights of non-consent in and under GOD ALMIGHTY, agents of robert::columbia of the Family:Columbia in succession et al., Sovereign Immaculate CITIZEN of the Free Common Wealth Republic of Virginia (not strawman Commonwealth of Virginia), under common law lawful tenure and ancient nobility. Under duress, year of our LORD 2016 (corrected calendar). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/57 "2016-06-02T14:53:59Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > As I do not acknowledge the treaty jurisdiction of this Admiralty Court in rem due to no UCC Contract having been duly signed under prima facie rights, I thereby accept for value the Sum of One Million Dollars ($1,000,000) in Lawful Gold or Silver Coin Only. > > robert,COLUMBIA, a foreign banking association with appearance in the Sheriff’s Court of the Domain of British West Florida, not required to register under Magna Carta rights of non-consent in and under GOD ALMIGHTY, agents of robert::columbia of the Family:Columbia in succession et al., Sovereign Immaculate CITIZEN of the Free Common Wealth Republic of Virginia (not strawman Commonwealth of Virginia), under common law lawful tenure and ancient nobility. Under duress, year of our LORD 2016 (corrected calendar). Since you accepted for value, you will get paid out of my Department of Treasury account. No joinder has been created by me in this transaction as I am a Section 4 traveller. Accepted for Value, Exempt from Levy, Exemption ID 439-61-2209 SAINT-CAD of the clan CAD::: (c) 2016 Authorized Representative for Saint Cad a natural person In Properia Persona. Notice does not bind agent to contracts. All inalienable rights reserved. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/58 "2016-06-02T15:59:51Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Is that from their pocket constitution? > > Bunch of lazy assholes with guns. Totally. If these people were serious they’d carry life sized copies of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/59 "2016-06-02T17:11:53Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Lawful Gold Would you accept Chaotic Plutonium? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/60 "2016-06-02T17:45:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Would you accept Chaotic Plutonium? Not as currency. Great name for a band, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886.md?page=4)