# Legal name fraud - the TRUTH! (WTF?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886 "2016-05-28T13:00:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/61 "2016-06-02T20:23:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Would you accept Chaotic Plutonium? Archimedes’ son? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/62 "2016-06-03T14:42:30Z")
I dunno, when the plutonium gets chaotic I’d think you are having some serious problems needing far more immediate remedy than filing a citizen’s lien. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/63 "2016-06-03T15:14:30Z")
What these types appear to believe is that the law is, basically, like magic: that if you know the right incantations, you can make it do more or less what you want. It’s a kind of cargo-cult version of the law, based on fundamental ignorance of what it is and how it works. It uses some of the terms from the law, but mixes and matches them in ways that make no sense, like a New Guinean making something that looks like an airplane out of palm fronds in order to attract other airplanes. You see something similar when those ignorant of modern physics invoke “quantum theory” or some such to support whatever their latest woo happens to be. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/64 "2016-06-03T16:02:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Gun nut” intersects with “sovereign citizen” to a certain extent (as in the “sovereign citizen” circle is almost entirely inside the “gun nuts” circle on the Venn diagram). Quite a lot of sovereign citizens get into the cult to avoid paying taxes, not because of gun nuttery. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/65 "2016-06-03T17:06:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I drove past a large billboard like this yesterday (near Southampton, England): > [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8a3uuWszeZk/hqdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8a3uuWszeZk/hqdefault.jpg) I’ve just seen the same poster in the market town of Oakham, England. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/66 "2016-06-03T18:30:49Z")
I love the phrasing “it’s illegal to use a legal name”. Has that fine circular self contradiction going. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/67 "2016-06-04T07:45:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You see something similar when those ignorant of modern physics invoke “quantum theory” or some such to support whatever their latest woo happens to be. We’ve already established that Quantum Theory (along with some other very strange physics) explains much of cat behavior. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17857868#post17857868](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17857868#post17857868) > **[List of nonsensical things that house cats do](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=767472)** > > Feel free to add to this list! It needs to be something that most cats do, not something only one cat does, and it needs to make little sense to humans They will let you pet them all day with your hand. But if you use a foot, no matter how... ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/68 "2016-06-07T19:00:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What these types appear to believe is that the law is, basically, like magic: that if you know the right incantations, you can make it do more or less what you want. > > It’s a kind of cargo-cult version of the law, based on fundamental ignorance of what it is and how it works. It uses some of the terms from the law, but mixes and matches them in ways that make no sense, like a New Guinean making something that looks like an airplane out of palm fronds in order to attract other airplanes. And not only do they mix and match legal terms, they sometimes just re-define words entirely. We had one fellow here in Canada who seriously was telling people that when a law says you “must” do something, it was optional, but when it said the government “may” do something, it was an unavoidable obligation. And people actually fell for that! ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/69 "2016-06-12T00:33:00Z")
As expected, it’s just the UK version of [sovcit nonsense](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36499750?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link). The linked article goes into some background about who may be behind the billboards. Apparently there’s quite a few of them being put up. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/70 "2016-06-12T03:18:25Z")
There’s a Facebook page that appears to be run by either the party responsible for the billboards or an avid supporter. [https://www.facebook.com/Legal-Name-Fraud-Billboards-934941869931105/timeline](https://www.facebook.com/Legal-Name-Fraud-Billboards-934941869931105/timeline) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/71 "2016-06-12T12:56:26Z")
Reading the articles about the person behind the UK billboards makes me wonder: Are some of the people behind the effort just trying to clog the system? I.e., they don’t believe a word of it but know there are thousands of idiots who will and make life difficult for a bunch of judges and prosecutors? It seems odd that people would use basically the same arguments in countries with different legal systems. The UK doesn’t even have “a” constitution. The sum of laws, etc. are considered the equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/72 "2016-06-12T19:34:38Z")
My favorite is the Rational Wiki [list of Freeman successes](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/73 "2016-06-12T21:34:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I would love it if a cop responded to one of these sovcits “You are using a public road. Sorry but you created joinder.” > > :SAINT of the family CAD: acting for the natural man Saint Cad. I do not bind myself to contracts. All use of my words require payment of $1,000,000 enforceable in Admiralty Court under UCC 1-103. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > As I do not acknowledge the treaty jurisdiction of this Admiralty Court in rem due to no UCC Contract having been duly signed under prima facie rights, I thereby accept for value the Sum of One Million Dollars ($1,000,000) in Lawful Gold or Silver Coin Only. > > robert,COLUMBIA, a foreign banking association with appearance in the Sheriff’s Court of the Domain of British West Florida, not required to register under Magna Carta rights of non-consent in and under GOD ALMIGHTY, agents of robert::columbia of the Family:Columbia in succession et al., Sovereign Immaculate CITIZEN of the Free Common Wealth Republic of Virginia (not strawman Commonwealth of Virginia), under common law lawful tenure and ancient nobility. Under duress, year of our LORD 2016 (corrected calendar). > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Since you accepted for value, you will get paid out of my Department of Treasury account. No joinder has been created by me in this transaction as I am a Section 4 traveller. > > Accepted for Value, Exempt from Levy, Exemption ID 439-61-2209 > > SAINT-CAD of the clan CAD::: (c) 2016 Authorized Representative for Saint Cad a natural person In Properia Persona. Notice does not bind agent to contracts. All inalienable rights reserved. 😃 I’m dying here! Somebody should start a thread in the Game Room: _Speak to Me in SovCit Lingo_. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/74 "2016-06-12T21:50:55Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > My favorite is the Rational Wiki [list of Freeman successes](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes). From elsewhere in that link: “Robert Menard in particular sells his DVD and book packs for C$250, but notably doesn’t use freeman legal tactics himself — he leaves that to his victims.” O…kay. I also assume that Menard doesn’t take “accepted for value” or promissory notes as payment. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/75 "2016-06-14T13:37:04Z")
On the UK billboards I found this on Mumsnet (of all places) [http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/\_chat/2598405-Legal-name-fraud-what-is-it](http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2598405-Legal-name-fraud-what-is-it) Here is a brief sample: > [@](#): > > You can fully invoke this Spiritual truth by simply orchestrating a new relationship with the war machine. Next time you go to a mailbox to get mail addressed to a Legal Name (that you do not have permission to use) - Look at the mailbox and INTEND the following if you want, it’s your choice, i’m just showing you the door home: Intent To the Mailbox / War Machine / through all of consciousness itself: “I have heard it is Fraud and against Universal Law to blindly submit to criminals who kill children by using their corporate, fictitious instruments, I must heat my home / pay for food and this is the only way I know how right now - I am seeking the truth!” Oh - and this: > [@](#): > > Your car is a conglomeration of many things with the primary one being this: the love energy - which you could have devoted to anything - is feminine and infinite & transferable, you chose to direct its creative power towards an Automobile. > > You think it’s the car, when really its the hijacking of your Source energy. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/76 "2016-06-14T20:28:45Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > From elsewhere in that link: > > “Robert Menard in particular sells his DVD and book packs for C$250, but notably doesn’t use freeman legal tactics himself — he leaves that to his victims.” > > O…kay. > > I also assume that Menard doesn’t take “accepted for value” or promissory notes as payment. That’s the part I find sad. The rest is creepy, but selling fake magic words is sad. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/77 "2016-06-14T22:12:58Z")
Yep. How dumb do you have to be to believe a guy who wants to sell you a machine that makes $100 bills, and he only wants $200 for it? Why doesn’t he use the machine himself? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/78 "2016-06-14T22:40:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yep. How dumb do you have to be to believe a guy who wants to sell you a machine that makes $100 bills, and he only wants $200 for it? Why doesn’t he use the machine himself? He doesn’t have the $500 dollar bills it runs on. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886/79 "2016-06-14T23:30:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But when they start citing laws and declaring these laws place them beyond the reach of the law, their arguments aren’t even self-consistent. If you’re outside the legal system, then the legal system can’t do anything to you - including placing outside of the legal system. A law that says laws have no effect is self-negating. Their arguments are barely coherent, let alone self-consistent, but the concept of being beyond the reach of law isn’t totally impossible. I think that they hold a moronic _Lethal Weapon 2_ diplomatic immunity understanding of the law. They think that there’s some way that they can maneuver themselves outside the jurisdiction of everything by saying the appropriate magic words. The idea that the law has self-imposed limits isn’t totally absurd. For example, most laws are limited to particular geographic boundaries. And laws like contract law require specific things to be in place or the contract is invalid. Unfortunately they lack the meta-reasoning skills required to understand that their system is unworkable and stupid and imaginary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-name-fraud-the-truth-wtf/755886.md?page=3)