# Legal permanent residents being stopped at the border **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431 "2017-01-28T20:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/41 "2017-01-29T10:25:38Z")
Good Lord, what a clusterfuck. This is the sort of Presidential Edict that would follow in the wake of a massive terrorist attack or foreign invasion, like Pearl Harbor or even greater. The smart political move – if Trump really wanted to follow this path – would have been to order a ban on _new_ travel visas, but honor current visas until they expire. See how the public reacts, and if everyone’s indifferent enough, then start working on deporting those brown people he dislikes. At least the Bush/Cheney Cartel were crafty enough to allow 9/11 before turning the Constitution into toilet paper. I’m actually starting to wax nostalgic for their Peter Baelish-like machinations. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/42 "2017-01-29T10:56:03Z")
Perhaps some of the most reviled Supreme Court precedents that still have not been overturned are the cases collectively known as the Chinese Exclusion cases from the late 1800’s. One of those cases most on point is [Chae Chan Ping v United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chae_Chan_Ping_v._United_States). The Wikipedia summary of the facts of this case are telling. > [@Wikipdia article](#): > > Chae Chan Ping was a Chinese citizen who had moved to San Francisco, California, a city in the Western United States, in 1875. He worked in the United States from 1875 to June 2, 1887, and then left to visit his homeland of China, after obtaining a certificate that would entitle him to return to the United States. The certificate was issued in accordance with provisions of the Chinese Exclusion Act.[3] > > On October 1, 1888, while he was outside the United States, the Scott Act became law. This Act forbade his re-entry. > > Chae Chan Ping departed on his return journey to the United States on September 7, 1888, from Hong Kong, on the steamship Belgic. On October 8, 1888, the ship landed within the port of San Francisco. He requested entry to the United States, presenting his certificate. He was denied entry based on the Scott Act. Captain Walker, the captain of the Belgic, detained Ping on board.[3] > > A writ of habeas corpus was filed on behalf of Ping, requesting that the captain release him and allow him to be presented in court. The captain complied. Ping appeared before the court, which determined that he was not being deprived of liberty, and returned him to the control of the captain. Ping appealed the order, and the case reached the United States Supreme Court.[3] There are a couple points of difference between the facts of that case and the modern day: [ul][li]The Ping case was long before the establishment of Legal Permanent Residence status (green card) but Ping was a foreign national living in the US with paperwork from Immigration that purportedly guaranteed his re-entry to the United States.[/li] [li]Ping was able to raise a particular treaty, the Burlingame Treaty, in his defense. There does not appear to be a similar treaty in the present day.[/ul][/li] The Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the United States government could prevent Ping from reentry to the United States, and that right of visitation is not a property right under the Fifth Amendment. Now… who again gets to appoint a justice to the vacancy in the Supreme Court? Wonder if His-Orangnish will look for a nominee that might be willing to vote to uphold the precedent in Ping? And less the Ping case seem overly shameful, the other Chinese Exclusion Act cases are mostly similarly reviled. [Fong Yue Ting v. United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fong_Yue_Ting_v._United_States) upheld the right of the United States government to deport Chinese foreign nationals who previously were living in the United States and who failed to obtain a residency permit, a requirement created by a specific law that only targeted the Chinese. Papers, please? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/43 "2017-01-29T11:11:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have been frustrated by “my side’s” knee-jerk reactions to every little twit-fit that the attention seeking President Preschooler spits out … this though is now something he has actually done, a likely illegal something that hopefully will not stand … but a horrific something. Well said. And the crazy part about it is it doesn’t really make logical sense. Iran, but not Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Both of which have been the source of folks committing actual acts of significant violence in the US. (Not that I’m advocating a ban of travel from those countries.) I want to see this fly through the courts and have them bitch-slap Trump. I don’t think he can be stopped from instituting a travel ban from certain countries, but he can’t include US green card holders in that ban, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/44 "2017-01-29T11:41:15Z")
The choice of countries was driven by a pre-existing law. Congress named the countries in question as being deficient in security in some respect. It might not make sense, but the nonsense predates the Trump administration. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think he can be stopped from instituting a travel ban from certain countries, but he can’t include US green card holders in that ban, AFAICT. The Department of Homeland Security actually came to the determination that the order, as written, did not apply to permanent residents. Then they called the White House for guidance and were told that their interpretation was wrong, that permanent residents are excluded by it. The order was also not submitted for any of the normal reviews, the purpose of which are to make sure that the agencies know what’s coming ahead of time and that the text actually says what it is meant. Even if you agree with the intent, the implementation was horrifically awful. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/45 "2017-01-29T11:51:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well said. > > And the crazy part about it is it doesn’t really make logical sense. Iran, but not Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Both of which have been the source of folks committing actual acts of significant violence in the US. (Not that I’m advocating a ban of travel from those countries.) Sush. I have an annoying case for which I might need to visit the US later this year. If there is a ban, I have an excuse and can step aside and tell the other party to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/46 "2017-01-29T13:48:50Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The choice of countries was driven by a pre-existing law. Congress named the countries in question as being deficient in security in some respect. It might not make sense, but the nonsense predates the Trump administration. But was Trump bound by that pre-existing law? That is, could he only institute his ban on countries that were already on that list? It seems to me that the president has broad discretion in that area, and can institute a travel ban as he chooses. But I’m far from an expert in that area… > [@](#): > > The Department of Homeland Security actually came to the determination that the order, as written, did not apply to permanent residents. Then they called the White House for guidance and were told that their interpretation was wrong, that permanent residents are excluded by it. Did you write that correctly? As I read it, it doesn’t make sense. > [@](#): > > The order was also not submitted for any of the normal reviews, the purpose of which are to make sure that the agencies know what’s coming ahead of time and that the text actually says what it is meant. Even if you agree with the intent, the implementation was horrifically awful. Trump may be an amateur, but he should have seasoned bureaucrats taking care of shit like that! ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/47 "2017-01-29T14:00:09Z")
Time to bust out the old checkbook and say hello to the ACLU again. Shameful. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/48 "2017-01-29T14:57:11Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Time to bust out the old checkbook and say hello to the ACLU again. Shameful. Yes. Also consider donating to groups like the International Refugee Assistance Project at the Urban Justice Center. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/49 "2017-01-29T15:02:35Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Time to bust out the old checkbook and say hello to the ACLU again. Shameful. Besides that and the other orgs mentioned in the next reply, those folks who are able need to get involved in politics and issues in their local area to get sane folks elected to local and federal offices. Let’s hope this current nonsense (and likely some future nonsense) gets Democrats and Independents off their butts and into some action, both locally and federally ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/50 "2017-01-29T15:21:05Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The ban on dual citizens doesn’t apply to US citizens with dual citizenship, it applies to citizens of the evil countries he’s banning who are also dual citizens of \*other \*countries. Which includes Nadhim Zahawi MP, Tory member for Stratford-on-Avon, and Omid Nouripour MdB, Green member for Frankfurt, deputy chairman of the German-US Parliamentary Friendship Group and member of the board of [Atlantik-Brücke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/51 "2017-01-29T15:38:45Z")
[Two more Republicans break with Trump on the refugee ban](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/Two-Philly-area-Republicans-break-with-Trump-on-immigration-order-joining-Democratic-outcry.html?mobi=true) And for those who keep saying this isn’t a Muslim ban and the libruls need to stop being so hysterical: [Rudy Giuliani: Trump asked me how to do a Muslim ban “legally”](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tasked-craft-muslim-ban-article-1.2958588) > [@](#): > > “I’ll tell you the whole history of it,” Giuliani told Jeanine Pirro as a Brooklyn judge thwarted President Trump’s executive order. “When he first announced it, he said ‘Muslim ban.’ ” > > “He called me up, he said ‘put a commission together, show me the right way to do it, legally.’” They aren’t calling this a Muslim ban. But that’s what it is intended to be. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/52 "2017-01-29T16:01:11Z")
So [a minimal walk-back](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/white-house-official-in-reversal-says-green-card-holders-wont-be-barred.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0) > [@](#): > > On Sunday, Mr. Priebus appeared to announce a dramatic change in those policies, saying that “as far as green card holders, moving forward, it doesn’t affect them.” Which leaves the rest in place of course. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/53 "2017-01-29T16:13:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So [a minimal walk-back](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/white-house-official-in-reversal-says-green-card-holders-wont-be-barred.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0) > > Which leaves the rest in place of course. Why were they in such a damn hurry? If they had properly vetted the order through all the appropriate agencies, then they could have completely avoided this kind of embarrassment and dodged attacks from the opposition. Either the administration is full of idiots or they just don’t give a fuck. Either way, our country needs to stay diligent. If they’re brazen enough to do this, who knows what else they have in store? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/54 "2017-01-29T16:18:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why were they in such a damn hurry? If they had properly vetted the order through all the appropriate agencies, then they could have completely avoided this kind of embarrassment and dodged attacks from the opposition. > > Either the administration is full of idiots or they just don’t give a fuck. Either way, our country needs to stay diligent. If they’re brazen enough to do this, who knows what else they have in store? Trump made a big deal about how stupid Obama was for announcing things in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/55 "2017-01-29T16:33:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why were they in such a damn hurry? If they had properly vetted the order through all the appropriate agencies, then they could have completely avoided this kind of embarrassment and dodged attacks from the opposition. > > Either the administration is full of idiots or they just don’t give a fuck. Either way, our country needs to stay diligent. If they’re brazen enough to do this, who knows what else they have in store? From reading a few things, I think that Trump has ADHD. I don’t think he can restrain himself. He’s probably doing 40 things at once and just throwing shit out there, without much caring what happens with it. The only mitigating factor is his need to seem successful. My dad is less extreme, but everything he ever does is half-assed because he can’t focus his attention on it long enough to do it properly. Trump, I thing, is going at something more like 1/8th-assed. Probably there’s a bunch of people in Washington right now getting chewed out for not vetting the order before sending it out, even though he’d probably told them to send it out immediately. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/56 "2017-01-29T16:36:12Z")
I do not give Trump credit for thinking this way but to some degree it serves his goals well. What is left after this walk-back is horrific. But in comparison it will be seen as relatively less so and the outrage to it will be less pronounced going forward than if he had thrown it out in the first place. Shove the Overton window wide open and then move it back down a smidge. Suddenly the horrific that remains is being called “a reversal” … ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/57 "2017-01-29T16:52:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > …And for those who keep saying this isn’t a Muslim ban and the libruls need to stop being so hysterical: > > [Rudy Giuliani: Trump asked me how to do a Muslim ban “legally”](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-tasked-craft-muslim-ban-article-1.2958588) > > They aren’t calling this a Muslim ban. But that’s what it is intended to be. Uh-oh. I guess Rudy won’t be invited for Thanksgiving Dinner at Trump Tower this year. Trump is handling this the way he imagines a CEO runs a company. He’s doing it like CEOs in movies or cartoon CEOs-- think "scrooge McDuck-- giving orders from on high and then letting his minions work out the details. Further proof that he doesn’t have a clue how to run a company (let alone a country). Have y’all noticed all the pictures of him holding up the Executive Orders for the cameras. Hell, he probably uses magnets to attach them to the refrigerator like a kid’s drawing. “See what I did today!” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/58 "2017-01-29T17:05:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why were they in such a damn hurry? If they had properly vetted the order through all the appropriate agencies, then they could have completely avoided this kind of embarrassment and dodged attacks from the opposition. > > Either the administration is full of idiots or they just don’t give a fuck. Either way, our country needs to stay diligent. If they’re brazen enough to do this, who knows what else they have in store? Here in Arizona I saw this coming hundreds of miles away. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19667784&postcount=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19667784&postcount=5) [QUOTE=GIGObuster] I think the most likely outcome is what we see in Arizona in a huuuuuuuge scale. Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been doing a lot of what Trump dreams to do to America, **with the nasty result being that his authoritarianism did cost the state close to 50 millions dollars in court costs and defense attorneys.** \*\* Mostly paid by the taxpayers of Arizona.\*\* Besides the costs for local business due to lost revenue and several not coming to Arizona because of the racial profiling and laws that affect minorities. (It is better now because the federal government did limit the new laws and the reach of the sheriff) **those court costs are one big reason why other areas, like investigating rapes, have suffered because of the priorities that many people that vote for the likes of Arpaio like to see.** \*\*I can see Trump doing lots of things for all those that voted for him. And so a lot of treasure will be lost with the constant legal fights that a lot of people will bring against Trump when he will make orders that eventually will be declared illegal, or that by the time the courts or the legislative branch react to the underhanded measures of Trump, it will be too late for many. \*\* In essence: what a strange game, the only winning move is not to vote for Trump… and don’t let his hackers get the launching codes either. [/QUOTE] [bold added] I posted that back in September. Really, that old saying of “tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are” was really wise, unfortunately a significant number of voters in battleground states were not wise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/59 "2017-01-29T17:28:12Z")
If they walk back the inclusion of green card holders, then all that’s left to litigate is those caught in the transition. I could be wrong, but I can’t see a court striking down the travel ban completely. Stupid policy, but he’s got the authority to do it AFAIK. Back during the campaign this is exactly how some of us were saying he’d institute his so-called ban on Muslims coming into the country. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431/60 "2017-01-29T17:34:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If they walk back the inclusion of green card holders, then all that’s left to litigate is those caught in the transition. I could be wrong, but I can’t see a court striking down the travel ban completely. Stupid policy, but he’s got the authority to do it AFAIK. Back during the campaign this is exactly how some of us were saying he’d institute his so-called ban on Muslims coming into the country. He’ll have to convince judges that he isn’t discriminating against a particular religion – AFAIK that is illegal. But it’s not illegal to subject people from areas of concern to extended vetting or even banning them outright. Probably no more illegal than it is to prohibit Americans from traveling to Cuba. It just has to follow the law and the constitution. Other than that, the prez can pretty much bar anyone he wants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-permanent-residents-being-stopped-at-the-border/778431.md?page=4)