# Legal Q - Abandoned Property **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 25, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595 "2005-01-25T15:52:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/1 "2005-01-25T15:52:39Z")
I have a friend in California who owns a house. She rents out rooms to two other people, and one of them has recently become a problem. I don’t think the details are relevant here, but she served him with a three-day notice of eviction last tuesday, and he agreed on Friday to vacate the premises by Monday (yesterday). However, he never returned from work Monday to take any of his stuff, leaving everything there, and has not returned home since. She is wondering when she can consider the room and his stuff abandoned so that she can move it out and re-rent the room. If further details are needed, I can ask her. She is not seeking legal advice, so much as wondering what to expect if and when she _does_ seek counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/2 "2005-01-25T16:05:46Z")
It goes by the law of the state in which the putative abandonment occurred. Property left in your keeping by another who does not reclaim it “within a reasonable period of time” is deemed abandoned by its former owner and falling into your possession – but different jurisdictions have vastly different views on what “a reasonable period of time” is. What **is** clear is that he intended to vacate in compliance with her eviction notice, so she is entitled to remove his personal property from the rental room and store it; the law does not require her to suffer the loss of income from that room in an effort to protect his putative rights to the personal property. I suspect that this can be handled with minimum expense to her by a letter to the State Attorney General’s Office stating: “I issued a three-day eviction notice to {John Tenant}, who formerly rented a room from me at {residence address}, on {date} for {reason} and he complied with it, leaving behind {list of personal property}. I have removed his property from the room which I had rented him and have it in storage at {where stored}. Can you advise me what steps I need to take – e.g., how long I must hold his property for him, and what I need to do to dispose of it legally if he does not reclaim it?” I’m sure this is a relatively common situation for which there is a form-letter answer. She may need to run a legal ad in a pennysaver or other appropriate newspaper before she permanently disposes of the property – I’ve seen such ads in four different states, giving name, brief summary of property, where held, and date by which it may be reclaimed. ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/3 "2005-01-25T16:13:31Z")
She must give the person notice in writing, certified return receipt requested, giving the person a reasonable amount of time to remove the possessions. She can charge a reasonable storage fee for holding the items. She cannot hold any of the items hostage for any moneys owed. If she wants to remove any items so the room can become available, she should have an impartial person do the packing and inventory of all the renter’s possessions. Even with this protection, it is possible that the renter could claim items are missing and be successful with a lawsuit. The items would only be considered abandoned after 30 days. Then she could do one of two things based on local laws or statutes. The first would be to turn the items over to the local sheriff’s department as abandoned. The items would then be sold at a sheriffs auction and any proceeds after expenses returned the the landlord. The most likely scenario is the sheriff or police will not want to be involved and the landlord can do what they want with the abandoned items. The first step though, would be a consultation with a local attorney before anything it touched or moved. Heard the exact same question on a national radio call in talk show this past weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/4 "2005-01-25T16:28:02Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It goes by the law of the state in which the putative abandonment occurred. Property left in your keeping by another who does not reclaim it “within a reasonable period of time” is deemed abandoned by its former owner and falling into your possession – but different jurisdictions have vastly different views on what “a reasonable period of time” is. Agree, mostly. But it’s less than clear that the property has been left in the OP’s keeping. > [@Polycarp](#): > > What **is** clear is that he intended to vacate in compliance with her eviction notice, so she is entitled to remove his personal property from the rental room and store it; the law does not require her to suffer the loss of income from that room in an effort to protect his putative rights to the personal property. Disagree that this is “clear”. At best, she’s got a verbal statement from the tenant that is likely to be denied by him later. Did he return the keys? Aparently not. Most states would require the landlord to file an eviction suit in this situation. Self-help evictions can lead to damages being assessed against the landlord. > [@Polycarp](#): > > I suspect that this can be handled with minimum expense to her by a letter to the State Attorney General’s Office stating: “I issued a three-day eviction notice to {John Tenant}, who formerly rented a room from me at {residence address}, on {date} for {reason} and he complied with it, leaving behind {list of personal property}. I have removed his property from the room which I had rented him and have it in storage at {where stored}. Can you advise me what steps I need to take – e.g., how long I must hold his property for him, and what I need to do to dispose of it legally if he does not reclaim it?” I’m sure this is a relatively common situation for which there is a form-letter answer. I would be shocked if any state Attorney General would provide this kind of legal advice to landlords. Maybe the enquiry might generate a brochure on tenant’s rights. Disclaimer: IAAL, but not in California. These are general observations about a post that appears to offer questionable legal advice. Your friend should see a California lawyer for advice. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/5 "2005-01-25T16:38:14Z")
Here’s the law in California: [http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html](http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html) ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/6 "2005-01-25T16:43:15Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > The first step though, would be a consultation with a local attorney before anything it touched or moved. Yes. > [@racer72](#): > > She must give the person notice in writing, certified return receipt requested, giving the person a reasonable amount of time to remove the possessions. She can charge a reasonable storage fee for holding the items. She cannot hold any of the items hostage for any moneys owed. If she wants to remove any items so the room can become available, she should have an impartial person do the packing and inventory of all the renter’s possessions. Even with this protection, it is possible that the renter could claim items are missing and be successful with a lawsuit. The items would only be considered abandoned after 30 days. Then she could do one of two things based on local laws or statutes. The first would be to turn the items over to the local sheriff’s department as abandoned. The items would then be sold at a sheriffs auction and any proceeds after expenses returned the the landlord. The most likely scenario is the sheriff or police will not want to be involved and the landlord can do what they want with the abandoned items. > > Heard the exact same question on a national radio call in talk show this past weekend What state’s law was the radio person applying? If he/she said this was always The Correct Thing To Do, always applicable, no matter what state’s law applies, the radio person is an idiot. In my opinion, in my state, the vast majority of judges would not consider the tenant’s right to possession ended. Even with a valid notice terminating the lease, all the lessor has here is a claimed verbal comment from the tenant that he intended to move out on Monday. He didn’t. He didn’t move out his stuff, and he didn’t return his keys. THe lessor didn’t see him Monday night. Even if that’s proof positive that he was never there that night, tenants don’t lose their right to possession by spending one night with a friend. Now it’s one day later and the landlord wants to grab his personal property? Not a good idea. It would likely be considered to be a an illegal forcible detainer by the landlord. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/7 "2005-01-25T16:49:11Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > Here’s the law in California: > > [http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html](http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html) Good link. But as it notes: > [@](#): > > The steps outlined in this legal guide are only for situations where personal property has been left in a rental unit which has been vacated by the tenant. If the tenant has not vacated the unit, a landlord has no legal right to dispose of personal property in the unit. If a landlord believes that a unit has been abandoned by the tenant, the landlord must follow certain legal steps to declare the rental unit abandoned. Only after the rental unit is legally considered abandoned can the landlord dispose of personal belongings left in it on that basis. One day’s absence does not equal “vacating the unit”. Also note discussion about writs of possession, which apparently are what California calls eviction orders issued via an eviction suit. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/8 "2005-01-25T17:27:18Z")
I take it you’re not asking for legal advice and I’m not giving it. I’ll tell you what I might do. I would make a judgment about how big a troublemaker the dude is. If I thought he was just the run of the mill deadbeat, I would contact him, perhaps sending a letter return receipt required, telling him if he wants his stuff he should get his butt over here in the next week to pick up his crap. If I didn’t hear from him shortly thereafter, I would pack up his items and re-rent the apartment. I would hold the items about twice as long as I thought necessary and then get rid of them. My procedure has possibly violated several legal principles and several statutes in the thousands of pages of federal, state and local rules. But I probably violate something every day I get out of bed, and as long as I act reasonably and cause no particular harm, it’s very infrequently anything bad comes from it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/9 "2005-01-25T18:08:55Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Agree, mostly. But it’s less than clear that the property has been left in the OP’s keeping. > > Disagree that this is “clear”. At best, she’s got a verbal statement from the tenant that is likely to be denied by him later. Did he return the keys? Aparently not. > > Most states would require the landlord to file an eviction suit in this situation. Self-help evictions can lead to damages being assessed against the landlord. > > I would be shocked if any state Attorney General would provide this kind of legal advice to landlords. Maybe the enquiry might generate a brochure on tenant’s rights. > > Disclaimer: IAAL, but not in California. These are general observations about a post that appears to offer questionable legal advice. Your friend should see a California lawyer for advice. Reasonable. IANAL. I was stating my understanding of what the law normally calls for in various jurisdictions, making the presumption that the person does not return for his property or attempt to recover his former rental room or his possessions under any tenant’s rights laws. And certainly no one should expect civil servants to provide useful information “for free” – i.e., paid for by their tax money, when they can line the pockets of an attorney for the same information. I take it that it is your stance here that no person should ever provide any information relative to a legal question on this board, lest they somehow trespass on the exclusive rights of attorneys to have opinions about legal rights and responsibilities? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/10 "2005-01-25T18:29:10Z")
What \*\*Random \*\*said. I have been on both sides of this situation, as an attorney. It’s an area of law that is very messy. As the value of the “abandoned” property rises, the risk of a subsequent lawsuit rises with it. Your best bet is to invest a few bucks and talk to a local attorney about it. As an aside, I had a fun variation on this once. The landlord illegally locked the tenant out, and put the tenant’s belongings on the street (the guy had not paid rent in some time, but the landlord took the law into his own hands). While the tenant was at the house picking his belongings up off of the street, the police raided the apartment of another tenant, breakind down the door in the process. I told the guy to go through the broken door and move back into his apartment. Then I sent a letter to the landlord demanding that the landlord fix the door immediately and to stop renting apartments to criminals. Everyone crowded into my office the next day when I got the landlord’s angry call. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/11 "2005-01-25T19:17:19Z")
Here is an answer about disposing of abandoned tenant property from the Nolo Press website [http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/auntie/questions.cfm/ObjectID/DFB7D47B-CF80-4E41-85908FCA5BCAAE18/catID/2B2E2666-FA8B-46D0-9DF743C08C2334B9](http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/auntie/questions.cfm/ObjectID/DFB7D47B-CF80-4E41-85908FCA5BCAAE18/catID/2B2E2666-FA8B-46D0-9DF743C08C2334B9) and this > [@](#): > > A few states allow landlords to freely dispose of a tenant’s leftover property when he has moved out. This is legal only if it is quite clear that the tenant has left permanently, intending to turn the place over to the owner. Landlords shouldn’t take a tenant’s property under the guise of handling “abandoned” property. Seizing property under a bogus claim that the tenant had abandoned it will expose a landlord to significant monetary penalties. [http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/ObjectID/50ABA868-D067-409C-9EFEED80B510C425/catID/F952FED3-0C94-4431-862E21322CCD72B6](http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/ObjectID/50ABA868-D067-409C-9EFEED80B510C425/catID/F952FED3-0C94-4431-862E21322CCD72B6) And last but not least, here is what California says to do [http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html](http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/lt-5.html) And on terminating the tenancy based on abandonment: > [@](#): > > Where the landlord reasonably believes the tenant has abandoned the leased premises (skipped), and the rent has been in default for at least 14 consecutive days, then the landlord may terminate the tenancy and retake possession by way of a 15 day notice under {Civil Code Sec. 1951.3}. [http://www.landlord.com/lawresoverview.htm](http://www.landlord.com/lawresoverview.htm) And a good resource on California landlord-tenant law. [http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/landlordbook/catenant.pdf](http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/landlordbook/catenant.pdf) Best bet: Talk to a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/12 "2005-01-25T20:18:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I take it that it is your stance here that no person should ever provide any information relative to a legal question on this board, lest they somehow trespass on the exclusive rights of attorneys to have opinions about legal rights and responsibilities? Not at all. My “stance” on this issue is: (1) No one, not even lawyers, should be providing legal advice to be relied upon by board members in real life decisionmaking. IIRC, this is consistent with express SDMB policy. The only advice I ever give here is “See a lawyer in your state if you want reliable legal counsel.” (2) That said, if I can pass along general comments about the law that I think would be of interest to the SDMB membership, or perhaps point someone in the right direction, I’ll do so. But I will always, always make it clear (if the question relates to a real world situation) that no one should consider my comments to be legal advice. Even if I happen to be licensed in the state in question, there is no way I would have enough information about the situation from a post or two on this board to form a meaningful legal opinion. And I always suggest that the OP should see someone who can provide that meaningful advice - an attorney licensed in the jurisdiction. Finally, on those rare occasions where I say something in a post where I am not sure of my information (perhaps because it involves an area of the law in which I don’t practice), I make that very clear. (3) I have no problem with non-lawyers doing that same (what I’ve described in #2) **if** they know what they are talking about. There are several non-lawyers on this board who regularly give good information. **Eva Luna** and **Otto** are two who come to mind. (4) Unfortunately, too many non-lawyers answer legal questions on this board and give bad information. They’ll make specific statements about the law, and recommend courses of action to people. (The kind of advice that board lawyers usually refuse to give, even in areas of their specialties, because it’s a bad practice even if the advice appears to be correct.) And if the advice is bad (like much of yours was here), I am going to point that out, so people don’t rely on it and get themselves in trouble. Clear now? (By the way, I’ve never made a dime from anything I’ve said or done through this board, even though I’ve spent hundreds of hours posting here on legal topics. On one occasion, someone offered to write me a check when one of my posts referring him to a state agency saved him some legal fees. I declined. So I could have done without the snide “line the pockets” comment.) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/13 "2005-01-25T20:37:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And certainly no one should expect civil servants to provide useful information “for free” – i.e., paid for by their tax money, when they can line the pockets of an attorney for the same information. Problem with civil servants giving legal advice: Most lack legal training. If they make a mistake, their employer will probably get sued for it. I have legal arguments all the time with civil servants who think that they know more about the law than me (mostly court clerks), they are usually wrong. (I could tell you stories). As a trained attorney I know that they: a. Lack authority to give legal advice; b. Usually have little training in the field. But I also assume their intentions are good, so I try to be nice. Specifically regarding attorneys’ general. They are busy representing the state. Most don’t take informal inquiries from the Teeming Millions. They do issue carefully researched (if sometimes biased) opinions to political bodies, but they don’t represent individuals except under very limited circumstances. Therefore, they are usually unwilling to give informal opinions to any shmo who dials their number. OTOH, there are books that give out information on legal issues. Nolo Press publishes some good ones. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/14 "2005-01-25T22:09:42Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > I have a friend in California who owns a house. She rents out rooms to two other people, and one of them has recently become a problem. I don’t think the details are relevant here, but she served him with a three-day notice of eviction last tuesday, and he agreed on Friday to vacate the premises by Monday (yesterday). However, he never returned from work Monday to take any of his stuff, leaving everything there, and has not returned home since. She is wondering when she can consider the room and his stuff abandoned so that she can move it out and re-rent the room. If further details are needed, I can ask her. > > She is not seeking legal advice, so much as wondering what to expect if and when she _does_ seek counsel. In most states, the minimum notice of eviction is thirty days. The minimum time for abandoned property is ninety days. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/15 "2005-01-25T23:04:47Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > In most states, the minimum notice of eviction is thirty days. The minimum time for abandoned property is ninety days. Sigh. Cite? And what do you mean by “notice of eviction”? Do you mean the notice necessary to terminate a tenancy? Or do you mean the notice (summons) that commences an eviction lawsuit? They’re not the same thing. And your 90 abandoned property period. What does that mean? If you have it 90 days, it’s yours? Or do you have to give/publish some kind of notice, and then it’s yours if no claim is made? ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/16 "2005-01-25T23:50:56Z")
My first step would be to research legislation covering the locale of rental. In PA it’s called the Landlord Tenant Act. Some cities/counties may have their own rules in place to cover such transactions. That would be step one. Next, see if your state has a bureau of unclaimed property. As a business owner, I have to complete a form and mail it to Harrisburg listing any property belonging to another which is in my custody, be it an uncashed paycheck or customer refund, repaired goods which haven’t been picked up, etc. Before disposing of anything, I’d have a chat with my regular barrister just to keep things clean, even if it cost me. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/17 "2005-01-26T00:31:07Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > In most states, the minimum notice of eviction is thirty days. The minimum time for abandoned property is ninety days. Here is what California says about it. > [@](#): > > Where the landlord reasonably believes the tenant has abandoned the leased premises (skipped), and the rent has been in default for at least 14 consecutive days, then the landlord may terminate the tenancy and retake possession by way of a 15 day notice under {Civil Code Sec. 1951.3}. [http://www.landlord.com/lawresoverview.htm](http://www.landlord.com/lawresoverview.htm) [**See section 1951.3**](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/civ/1940-1954.1.html), which spells out the procedure for notifying the tenant of the landlord’s belief that the tenant has abandoned the property. The notice period is 15 days. I am neither a California lawyer nor your lawyer. Similarly, you are not my client and this is not legal advice. All offers shall become null and void if – and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy – “I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained,” et cetera, et cetera… “Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum,” et cetera, et cetera… “Memo bis punitor delicatum”! It’s all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day sir! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-q-abandoned-property/286595/18 "2005-01-26T18:51:28Z")
Thanks for all the excellent information, folks. It is appreciated. I’ve passed this thread on to her.