# Legal Question - Crimes committed by Americans outside the U.S.A. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541 "2007-10-22T04:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/1 "2007-10-22T04:36:42Z")
The recent report of rape allegations against illusionist David Copperfield has raised a question. Are crimes committed by Americans on foreign soil subject to the American judicial system? Using the Copperfield situation as an example, reports indicate he is accused of raping a woman in the Bahamas. Yet the FBI is investigating the case. He’s an American citizen and so is the alleged victim, so does that bring it into the jurisdiction of the FBI even though it didn’t, allegedly, happen in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/2 "2007-10-22T05:31:34Z")
I hadn’t heard of that particular case, but in a general sense no, the country in which the crime was committed has jurisdication regardless of the nationailty of the individual committing the crime, you see it in action often in South East Asia and Australia with drug trafficking. There was a recent case here in Australia where a US Serviceman (Navy IIRC) was accused of rape while on shore leave, and the case was being handled by local police. The US Navy was asking ever so nicely for him to be turned over to them for action to be taken. I know the government was inclined to say no, wanting to handle it locally, but I never did hear the outcome. Knowing our governments relationship with the US, they probably just waited for the local media to lose interest and then quietly hand him over. :rolleyes: Found a cite from Wikipedia on the incident (Yes I know the esteem Wikipedia carries 😛 ) > [@](#): > > According to the source, Copperfield’s accuser claimed the misconduct occurred in the Bahamas, but the case came under the FBI’s jurisdiction because the accuser is a U.S. citizen and did not report the incident while staying in the Bahamas. So can a US citizen be put on trial for a crime that was committed outside the country? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/3 "2007-10-22T09:46:21Z")
[QUOTE=GreedySmurf] So can a US citizen be put on trial for a crime that was committed outside the country? [/QUOTE] Yes. At least in some cases. There are laws specifically aimed at “sex tourism” that the US will bust you for upon returning to the US ([cite](http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2003/Dec/17-227348.html)). That said you will not get arrested for, say, smoking pot while you were in Amsterdam or visiting an adult prostitute while there so I am not sure how far such things extend (perhaps you could be and they just never bother…I dunno). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/4 "2007-10-22T11:05:36Z")
The example above of a member of the US Navy committing a crime leaves something out. The Uniform Code of Military Justice (a code of US Federal Law) applies to the member regardless of his whereabouts. I was under the impression that the US had, like Canada does, “sex tourism” laws for which they can try their citizens who go abroad for the purpose of engaging in sex with minors. Is that the case? ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/5 "2007-10-22T11:16:53Z")
Also, when U.S. military personel are involved, the Status of Forces agreement, w/ the country in question, often addresses legal jurisdiction. The majority of crimes committed by U.S. military personel are lesser crimes and the host country is happy not having to deal w/ them, although some more serious crimes become political footballs and cause the host country to dispute the SoF. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/6 "2007-10-22T12:07:01Z")
Very few laws are extraterritorial. The most famous in the British Espionage Act which makes it a crime for two Russians in Moscow to plot to spy on the British. Some nations do have sex tourism laws, I do not know if the Americans have one. I find such laws to be an insult to the sovereignty of other nations. If what you do in Thailand is legal there, why is it a crime elsewhere? Why is it (say) America’s business? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/7 "2007-10-22T12:11:15Z")
Here are some links to previous discussions: [Can you be prosecuted for a US crime committed in another country?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334052) [Risks of sex tourism in Thailand](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333776) And a staff report about extra-territorial jurisdiction: [In international waters, are you beyond the reach of the law?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mlawofsea.html) And a recent thread on a semi-related topic: [What would happen if an American assassinated a foreign leader?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=9000771) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/8 "2007-10-22T19:08:55Z")
One caveat about this. If I, as an American citizen living in Canada were to file a false US tax return while living here, it would certainly violate US law and they could ask Canada to extradite me. Incidentally, the US is one of a very few countries that tries to tax foreign-earned income of US citizens living abroad. It is a royal pain to file a return (especially with my wife’s business income) and, Canadian taxes being considerably higher, I am never actually liable to pay any tax. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/9 "2007-10-22T19:32:46Z")
I don’t know the particulars of this case, but it could also be that a) the FBI is investigating at the behest of a small nation that does not have the resources to do so, or b) the FBI is investigating in order to allow a court to decide whether or not there is sufficient merit to the case to have him deported. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Fozzie\_Bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Fozzie\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fozzie_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/10 "2007-10-22T22:59:51Z")
Judging from this FOX News article, Bahamas authorities haven’t yet factored into this situation at all. > **[David Copperfield forced to reveal illusion secret in court](https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/david-copperfield-forced-to-reveal-illusion-secret-in-court)** > > Magician David Copperfield has been forced to reveal the secret of one of his signature tricks after being sued by an injured British audience member. You have two American citizens, one of whom claims to be a victim outside the boundaries of the US, but who _waits to get home to Seattle before notifying police_. Seattle police certainly don’t have jurisdiction; who else but the Feds even could, in order to get the investigation under way? I’m sure they could always ask the cooperation of the Bahamian police if need be, since the FBI does have a legal attache sub-office in Nassau. See this page: [http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm](http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm) ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/11 "2007-10-22T23:49:18Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor’s Staff Report] Under the relevant treaties, any State can board a ship on the high seas if the ship is suspected of piracy, transporting slaves, or broadcasting illegally. A ship and its occupants can be arrested for piracy and illegal broadcasting by a warship of any State. For other crimes, the arresting State must get the consent or assistance of the flag state. [/QUOTE] Glad to hear that they go after those evil pirates, slave runners, and … _illegal broadcasters_? Must be those strange stations that broadcast series of numbers in Spanish that William Poundstone talks about. A pretty badass bunch of broadcasters to be thrown with the rest of the lot. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/12 "2007-10-22T23:59:30Z")
A lot of the cop speak here - and more so in recent years - seems to have the alleged crime itself so important for the speaker not to get wrong that it remains outside of normal grammar, so instead of, “a male person was charged with breaking and entering, theft, and resisting arrest”, it will be “a male person was charged with _break, enter, and steal_, and _resist arrest_.” ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/13 "2007-10-23T00:02:16Z")
In addition to what has already been said, the U.S. has a fair number of [extradition treaties](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties) to handle this very situation. That is to say, we send them theirs, and they send us ours. You’ll notice the Bahamas does indeed have an extradition teaty with the U.S. As U.S. jurisdiction arises by treaty, it is no insult to the foreign state’s sovereignity. However, it some circumstances one nation refuses to extradite, and international relations are strained. For more on that, [Extradition - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition) . ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/14 "2007-10-23T00:02:49Z")
Aaagh. Posted in the wrong thread. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/15 "2007-10-23T00:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=minor7flat5] Glad to hear that they go after those evil pirates, slave runners, and … _illegal broadcasters_? Must be those strange stations that broadcast series of numbers in Spanish that William Poundstone talks about. A pretty badass bunch of broadcasters to be thrown with the rest of the lot. [/QUOTE] This came up in the comments thread on the staff report, back when I still had all of the books. Here is what I said then: [QUOTE=Gfactor] [QUOTE=Tierce] I agree, this was an interesting read. I’m curious about this bit: Piracy is pretty heinous. Transporting slaves is pretty heinous. Broadcasting illegally? Is illegal broadcasting at sea really that bad if it happens? [/QUOTE] According to Evans (citation in article): > [@](#): > > In the 1960s elements of the international community became agitated about the rise of commercial broadcasting into a country from foreign registered vessels on the high seas and over which they could not exercise any control (or extract revenues). Regional State practice to address this problem in the North Sea was subsequently built on with the result that the LOSC Article 109 permits the arrest and prosecution of any person engaged in ‘unauthorized radio broadcasting’ from ships or installations on the high seas by a range of States, including the State where the transmissions are received. A perhaps unexpected consequence of this arose in the early 1990s when a vessel called _Goddess of Democracy_ planned to broadcast messages of solidarity and support for those arrested in the pro-democracy demonstrations in Beijing. The Chinese made it clear they would arrest the vessel if it did so, and the mission was aborted. > > The rather heavy handed approach to radio broadcasting contrasts with the comparatively feeble manner in which other, more pressing, issues were tackled. The international prohibition of slavery is well-established in international law yet the convention does not permit the arrest of vessels engaged in slave trading by non-flag states, merely providing that a State ‘shall take effective measures to prevent and punish the transport of slaves in ships authorized to fly its flag’ It is a heavy handed approach, no question about it. The fact that suspected slaving vessels can only be visited–not arrested if it turns out they are slave ships–is disconcerting. [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7424872&postcount=10](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7424872&postcount=10) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2007, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/16 "2007-10-23T01:57:17Z")
[QUOTE=A.R. Cane] Also, when U.S. military personel are involved, the Status of Forces agreement, w/ the country in question, often addresses legal jurisdiction. The majority of crimes committed by U.S. military personel are lesser crimes and the host country is happy not having to deal w/ them, although some more serious crimes become political footballs and cause the host country to dispute the SoF. [/QUOTE] Japan and America run into issues with this, especially for cases of rape, which become huge media events. The US has agreed to informally modify the SoF for serious crimes. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-crimes-committed-by-americans-outside-the-u-s-a/423541/17 "2007-10-23T09:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer] Japan and America run into issues with this, especially for cases of rape, which become huge media events. The US has agreed to informally modify the SoF for serious crimes. [/QUOTE] Isn’t there a concern that the Japanese criminal justice system does not meet American standards of fairness? See [Confess and be done with it](http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8680941).