# Legal question-getaway driver culpability **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 29, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262 "2017-03-29T01:37:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/21 "2017-03-29T16:16:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are driving down the road at a safe speed, paying normal attention. I and my worst enemy are on the sidewalk. Suddenly, I push my enemy in front of your car. There is no way for you to stop in time, and you hit my enemy and kill him. > > You have not committed murder, but I have. Ok . . . I get that, and appreciate the analogy. But, what if you and your worst enemy both decide to jump into traffic together, and only one of you dies? Accusing the other of murder seems inappropriate (barring any evidence of coercion or something else like that. As I said, the simple facts don’t seem appropriate to convict someone without evidence that one person really lead the other into the situation). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/22 "2017-03-29T16:21:43Z")
Okay, since the news now is that she was the one who planned the robbery, does that make it more reasonable to charge her with murder? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/23 "2017-03-29T18:42:49Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > But, what if you and your worst enemy both decide to jump into traffic together, and only one of you dies? Accusing the other of murder seems inappropriate (barring any evidence of coercion or something else like that. If both jump willingly in front of your car, then no felony has occurred (just an attempted mass suicide), so the felony murder rule doesn’t apply. > [@NorthernStar](#): > > I fail to comprehend why it should be applied re: a death of someone who commits said felony. Unless one has actually coerced another person into participating, why should they bear any responsibility when that person is legally killed in the course of the crime or dies from other non-punishable causes? Under the legal definition, the victim’s identity and role in the felony might technically be irrelevant, but what interests are being protected and what purpose served by such interpretation? **Friedo** lists one big interest, i.e. a disincentive for participation in violent crime for the protection of potential victims, even if your manner of participation (e.g. as an unarmed getaway driver) is not likely to result _directly_ in a death. Another one is that the perps, despite committing criminal acts, are still somebody’s kid (and possibly somebody’s parents/spouse). Had they not been killed, they might have gone on to live productive/contributory lives. Their deaths, despite occurring during the commission of a violent felony, are viewed (by some, at least) as tragic losses, and we have an interest in preventing such tragedies. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/24 "2017-03-29T20:27:18Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > If both jump willingly in front of your car, then no felony has occurred (just an attempted mass suicide), so the felony murder rule doesn’t apply. Ok, sure, but my attempt at running with that analogy was meant to indicate that there is a difference between being pushed (as **Shodan** proposed) and making a choice of one’s own volition. Let’s say both jumpers were running from the cops who were chasing them for felony drug possession. -A man breaks into a house and is shot by the homeowner. No one has been murdered. -A man is driven to a home, breaks in and is shot by the homeowner. The man was murdered by his driver? Charge the driver with something if you want, but calling it murder makes as much sense as calling a handshake . . . well, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/25 "2017-03-29T21:05:32Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > In Tulsa, three burglars were killed in a home invasion. The getaway driver is being charged with murder X 3. > > Now I get it when say a bank teller is killed in a robbery or even has a heart attack. I get the theory in charging the driver. But here no one was murdered. How can she be charged with murder ? > > Side question, does the application seem fair to you? Law of felony murder [explained simply by aid of comic strip](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1274). Includes an example very similar to the above. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/26 "2017-03-29T21:39:47Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Don’t do the crime if you can’t take the consequences. And keep your eye on the sparrow. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/27 "2017-03-29T21:54:48Z")
Okay, two people commit an armed robbery. One of the robbers gets away, but the victim manages to push the other robber off a bridge. The robber lands in front of a runaway trolley, saving the lives of 5 people. Does the living robber get charged with murder? ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/28 "2017-03-29T22:21:39Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, two people commit an armed robbery. One of the robbers gets away, but the victim manages to push the other robber off a bridge. The robber lands in front of a runaway trolley, saving the lives of 5 people. Does the living robber get charged with murder? Is the trolley on a treadmill? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/29 "2017-03-30T01:15:13Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, two people commit an armed robbery. One of the robbers gets away, but the victim manages to push the other robber off a bridge. The robber lands in front of a runaway trolley, saving the lives of 5 people. Does the living robber get charged with murder? He does. He also gets 5 awards from the mayor for heroically saving people from the runaway trolley. That nets to plus-4, so he’s a hero, given a ceremonial key to the city and a city park named after him. The charges are quietly dropped. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/30 "2017-03-30T01:22:03Z")
In my personal opinion, punishment is mostly counter-productive. Having said that, it doesn’t bother me that some action is called a ‘crime’, and that some crimes are called ‘murder’. You and your friends go exploring in a quary, and your friends all get killed? What you did was wrong. That’s why they have the signs ‘Danger, No Entry’. I hope you don’t do it again, and I hope other people don’t think it’s a good idea. I’m comfortable with the idea that you shouldn’t do crimes that get your friends shot. I’m pretty much not comfortable with the death penalty, or even any kind of sentence past 15 years for anything, but that’s a different question. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/31 "2017-03-30T05:06:08Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m pretty much not comfortable with the death penalty, or even any kind of sentence past 15 years for anything, but that’s a different question. I think the United States hands out harsh sentences and felony convictions way too freely, but there _are_ some people who should never, ever, ever get back out into society again; whether that means the death penalty or life in prison without parole. An example off the top of my head: [Ted Bundy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy). If he had gotten a max 15 year sentence at his (second) trial, he would have been released in 1994 at the latest, at which point he would only have been 48 years old. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/32 "2017-03-30T06:33:55Z")
The reasoning has been explained. As for fairness I am mixed; I would call it fair to be labeled as murder but would hope people so prosecuted received a sentence more in line with manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/33 "2017-03-30T12:10:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, two people commit an armed robbery. One of the robbers gets away, but the victim manages to push the other robber off a bridge. The robber lands in front of a runaway trolley, saving the lives of 5 people. Does the living robber get charged with murder? Until we look inside the box, both yes _and_ no! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/34 "2017-03-30T13:20:57Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > As I said, the simple facts don’t seem appropriate to convict someone without evidence that one person really lead the other into the situation). The analogy was to show how someone can be guilty of murder when somebody else innocently does the killing. How about this one - I talk you into a drag race on a dangerous track. I win the race, you crash and die. I am morally guilty because I enticed you into doing something very risky, even if I am not the one who kills you directly. I would call it manslaughter rather than murder, but IANAL. Maybe we just disagree with what constitutes “really leading the other into the situation”. If I drive the getaway car, I am enabling you to participate in a risky situation (burglary) where you stand a good chance of dying. Moreso if I plan the robbery, because I bear the moral onus of having my plan of a clean getaway not working. I guess the general push of the law is that, if you are going to do something, you need to make damn sure that nobody dies, and if somebody does, it’s on you. A robbery or other crime where nobody dies is bad enough. Obviously it’s way more serious when an innocent person - a cop, or a victim - dies. Even if you are only driving the getaway car, I think you are morally responsible when your buddy shoots a victim. When your buddy is the one getting shot? Clearly not as serious as if it were a cop, but still more serious than a robbery where nobody at all died. Or maybe just “don’t rob people, and the worse the outcome, the worse it will be for the robbers”. Although I concur that the fact that one of the robbers got what was coming to him should make some kind of difference over a cop or a victim dying. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/35 "2017-03-30T16:00:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How about this one - I talk you into a drag race on a dangerous track. I win the race, you crash and die. I am morally guilty because I enticed you into doing something very risky, even if I am not the one who kills you directly. I would call it manslaughter rather than murder, but IANAL. I guess to me there’s still the idea embedded in this analogy that person A convinced person B to do something they would otherwise not have done, and person B happens to be the one who gets killed. What if both people decided to do the action independently of each other? What if it’s person A (the convincer) who gets killed? > [@](#): > > Maybe we just disagree with what constitutes “really leading the other into the situation”. If I drive the getaway car, I am enabling you to participate in a risky situation (burglary) where you stand a good chance of dying. Moreso if I plan the robbery, because I bear the moral onus of having my plan of a clean getaway not working. Yeah, or rather, a disagreement about how much enabling (of varying degrees of enabling) someone to participate in a risky situation means that you have committed murder in cases where that situation leads to death. Bottom line for me is that the question of a murder charge in these instances shouldn’t rest upon whether or not the activity involved is against the law. I’m all for, at first glance, steep punishments for co-conspirators when something goes wrong, for the reasons of deterrence that you and others have mentioned. But don’t call it murder. It stretches the meaning of the word, both in the legal and vernacular senses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262/36 "2017-03-30T16:07:15Z")
I don’t know about the legal sense, but I agree with you on the vernacular one. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legal-question-getaway-driver-culpability/783262.md?page=1)